Hawk 75A-6 and Fokker D-XXI-3 buys

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gottschs
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Hawk 75A-6 and Fokker D-XXI-3 buys

Post by gottschs » 03 May 2018 00:19

Hello all, was wondering if anyone had info on the date the Finnish Air Force paid for the Fokker manufacturing license, how much it cost for the license and the 7 aircraft they batch ordered from Fokker (should have been sometime in 1937), and how much they had to pay Fokker for each license built in Finland?

Also, might anyone have info on how much the Finnish Air Force paid for Norway's Hawk 75A-6's? Should have been 7 of the 19 delivered to Norway by April 1940. http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p36_13.html site states the other 12 airplanes that also had arrived in Norway were still sitting in the customs building down at the harbour. Recognizing that the planes in storage would likely soon fall into German hands, an employee decided singlehanded to crush all the instruments with a hammer and to cut all visible wires with a wire cutter.".

I'm assuming the German's provided for free the 36 partially-completed Hawk 75As that had been seized by German forces from France at the time of the Armistice and assembled in Germany then flown to Finland?

thanks for any help. I just can't find that sort of info from the Osprey aviation books.

Mangrove
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Re: Hawk 75A-6 and Fokker D-XXI-3 buys

Post by Mangrove » 03 May 2018 04:24

gottschs wrote:Hello all, was wondering if anyone had info on the date the Finnish Air Force paid for the Fokker manufacturing license, how much it cost for the license and the 7 aircraft they batch ordered from Fokker (should have been sometime in 1937), and how much they had to pay Fokker for each license built in Finland?
According to Raunio's Lentäjän näkökulma II, Ministry of Defence agreed upon buying the seven planes and the license for another 14 planes during its meeting on 18 November 1936. The total price for the seven Fokkers from N. V. Nederlandsche Vliegtuigenfabriek was 300 612 FL or 7.65 million FIM. The total price for 14 licenses was 60 000 FL or 1.53 million FIM.
gottschs wrote: I'm assuming the German's provided for free the 36 partially-completed Hawk 75As that had been seized by German forces from France at the time of the Armistice and assembled in Germany then flown to Finland?
This is a somewhat common misconseption, the Curtiss Hawks were paid with Reichsmarks. The only major armament provided by the Germans for the Finnish Defence Forces for free of charge were the 15 Dornier Do-17 Z in November 1941. Below are some cost of various aeroplanes (per plane) bought from various countries and converted into 1941 Finnish markka (FIM).

SB 2 = 1 200 000 FIM
PE 2 = 2 500 000 FIM
IL 4 = 2 900 000 FIM
Blenheim Mk. I (V-series) = 3 300 000 FIM
DB 3 = 3 600 000 FIM
JU 88 = c. 7 100 000 FIM (9 500 000 FIM in 1943)

Fokker D.XXI (Wasp, IV-series) = 640 000 FIM
Bf 109 G-2 (new) = 3 400 000 FIM (4 000 000 FIM in December 1942)
Bf 109 G-2 (refurbished) = 3 000 000 FIM (3 600 000 FIM in December 1942)
Fiat G.50 (including spare parts) = 5 280 000 FIM (3 760 000 FIM in October 1939)
Brewster B.239 (including spare parts) = 5 350 000 FIM (3 810 000 FIM in December 1939)

gottschs
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Location: United States

Re: Hawk 75A-6 and Fokker D-XXI-3 buys

Post by gottschs » 03 May 2018 13:00

Thank you very much for the quick information. I didn't know if Finland paid in Markka or in gold.

Lotvonen
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Re: Hawk 75A-6 and Fokker D-XXI-3 buys

Post by Lotvonen » 04 May 2018 05:50

AFAIK the German war material was delivered to Finland on credit, to be paid after the German final victory. As it did not happen the Soviet Union stipulated in the peace treaty that the Finns pay them instead. Since the Russians did not find the German accounting books, Finns cooked their books and paid some one third of the actual sum.

Seppo Koivisto
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Re: Hawk 75A-6 and Fokker D-XXI-3 buys

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 04 May 2018 22:50

According to Raunio's book the Veltjens company asked 130 000 RM for each Hawk delivered in 1943, but Finland agreed to pay 60 000 RM. Next year the cost for a Bf 109 G-6 was 200 000 RM.

On 19.9.1944 the Finnish dept for war material on the Finnish German clearing account was 3,8 billion FIM. The real debt could be as high as 7,7 billion, but the Finnish agent Hilbert forged receipts against a small fee. (Toisen maailmansodan aiheuttama taloudellinen rasitus Suomessa vuosina 1939-1952)

gottschs
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Re: Hawk 75A-6 and Fokker D-XXI-3 buys

Post by gottschs » 06 May 2018 22:36

I did a little conversion between Markka and US dollar in 1938. The conversion I was using is 1 Markka = 2.4 cents

Not sure what the Markka to RM conversion was in 1943 though.

So if the total price for the seven Fokkers from N. V. Nederlandsche Vliegtuigenfabriek was 300 612 FL or 7.65 million FIM then it equaled $183,600 US or $26,229 US each. That sort of price must have included the engine and government furnished equipment (e.g., guns, sights, engine, etc...)

The total price for 14 Fokker licenses was 60 000 FL or 1.53 million FIM = $35,190 US or $2,517 US each

SB 2 = 1 200 000 FIM = $28,800 US each (16 bought from Germany)

PE 2 = 2 500 000 FIM = $60,000 US each (6 bought from Germany)

IL 4 = 2 900 000 FIM = $69,600 US each (4 DB-3Fs bought from captured from German stocks)

Blenheim Mk. I (V-series) = 3 300 000 FIM = $79,200 US each (18 Blenheim Mk I’s bought from England. 24 additional British-manufactured Blenheims were ordered during the Winter War and were delivered from the RAF's own stocks. Finland made 55 licensed. The Finns also received 20 half-completed ex-Yugoslavian Mk IV Blenheims captured by Germany, together with manufacturing tools, production equipment, and a huge variety of spare parts.

DB 3 = 3 600 000 FIM = $86,400 US each (1941 six DB-3Ms purchased from German surplus stocks)

JU 88 = c. 7 100 000 FIM (9 500 000 FIM in 1943) = $170,400 US each (1941) / $228,000 US (1943) (In April 1943 Finnish Air Force bought 24 JU-88s from Germany)

Fokker D.XXI (Wasp, IV-series) = 640 000 FIM = $15,360 US each (Finland build 55 of these and this must be the cost without the engine as they seem to go for about ~$7,000-$8,000 per engine)

Bf 109 G-2 (new) = 3 400 000 FIM (4 000 000 FIM in December 1942) = $81,600 US each / $96,000 US (Finland ordered 162 aircraft (48 G-2s, 111 G-6s and three G-8s) from Germany, but 3 were destroyed during transit, leaving the FAF with 159 Bf 109s)

Bf 109 G-2 (refurbished) = 3 000 000 FIM (3 600 000 FIM in December 1942) = $72,000 US/ $86,400 US (Finland ordered 162 aircraft (48 G-2s, 111 G-6s and three G-8s) from Germany, but 3 were destroyed during transit, leaving the FAF with 159 Bf 109s)

Fiat G.50 (including spare parts) = 5 280 000 FIM (3 760 000 FIM in October 1939) = $126,720 US / $90,240 US (Finland ordered 35 Fiat G.50s and received 33 due to crashes enroute)

Brewster B.239 (including spare parts) = 5 350 000 FIM (3 810 000 FIM in December 1939) = $128,400 US / $91,440 US (16 December 1939, the Finns signed a contract to purchase 44 Model 239 fighters for $3.4 US million, and the deal included spare parts, ten replacement engines and 20 Hamilton Standard propellers)…$3.4M = $77,272 each. Wondering which is right.

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All together, the FAF really spent alot of money on aircraft.

Seppo Koivisto
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Re: Hawk 75A-6 and Fokker D-XXI-3 buys

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 07 May 2018 22:24

gottschs wrote: Brewster B.239 (including spare parts) = 5 350 000 FIM (3 810 000 FIM in December 1939) = $128,400 US / $91,440 US (16 December 1939, the Finns signed a contract to purchase 44 Model 239 fighters for $3.4 US million, and the deal included spare parts, ten replacement engines and 20 Hamilton Standard propellers)…$3.4M = $77,272 each. Wondering which is right.
Your conversion rate was not accurate. The cost for one Brewster was 54 000 USD, total cost including spares and freight was 3,4 million USD or 168 million FIM, which makes 77 272 USD or 3 810 000 FIM each plane. In 1941 Finnish money value 5 350 000 FIM or 110 000 USD, but the inflation rate was much lower in the US. The buying power of 77 272 USD in 1939 seems to be 77 824 USD in 1941.

Exchange rates according to: http://www.rahamuseo.fi/en/games-and-mu ... converter/
1938: 100 Mk = 5,35 RM = 2,15 USD
1939: 100 Mk = 5,11 RM = 2,05 USD
1940: 100 Mk = 5,06 RM = 2,03 USD
1941-44: 100 Mk = 5,07 RM = 2,03 USD
1945: 100 Mk = 5,07 RM = 1,12 USD

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