Valkeasaari, June 1944

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Wolf
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Valkeasaari, June 1944

Post by Wolf » 05 Jan 2019 22:32

Image

I'm looking for a detailed description on the defences of JR1 at the time of the Soviet main attack. Especially the AT assets.

I have the Swedish version of Ilja Mosjtjanski's Schtrum "Karelskogo valla" (Karleska näset 1944 - slutstriden) which includes some information, including a map that suggests the area where JR1 had small villages called Old Valkeasaari, Olchovka and Aleksandrovka.

Here's a picture of what seems to be anti-tank obstacles, supposedly in the JR1 near Valkeasaari:

Image

source:
https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-6808089

Simo Liikanen (Panssarinmurskaajat. Panssarintorjunta talvi - ja jatkosodassa) claims that there were a total of 18 anti-tank guns within the JR1 area. This correct?

Swing
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

Post by Swing » 06 Jan 2019 08:22

To be honest, Mosjtjanski's book is a fake. Most detailed and truthful information about Vakkeasaari battle you can find here (see enclosure)
Anti-tank armaments:
14./JR 1 - 3x37 К/36, 3x37 К/34, 2x45 К/40 and 2x76 K/27
10.Tyk.K - 6x75 K/40
By the way, one of the Russian authors, farmer is a member of AHF. You can drop him a PM or send e-mail.
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

Post by Wolf » 06 Jan 2019 19:14

Swing wrote:
06 Jan 2019 08:22
14./JR 1 - 3x37 К/36, 3x37 К/34, 2x45 К/40 and 2x76 K/27
10.Tyk.K - 6x75 K/40
Thanks, Swing!

Any mention of 32. tykkikomppania?


(Sadly I don't speak, or really read, Russian... :/)

Wolf
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

Post by Wolf » 06 Jan 2019 20:01


Swing
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

Post by Swing » 07 Jan 2019 08:10

Wolf wrote:
06 Jan 2019 19:14
Any mention of 32. tykkikomppania?
4х75 K/40 +2x37 К/36

I/32. Tyk.K (2x37 K) was in III/JR 58 sector (Hatsalanmäki), III/32.Tyk.K (2x75 K) was in I/JR 58 sector (Aleksandrovskaja), II/32.Tyk.K (2x75 K) was in reserve (Kuokkala)

Art
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

Post by Art » 07 Jan 2019 11:46

Order of battle of the 10 Division also lists what they call "lohkoaseet". Weapons permanently installed in fortifications probably?

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JTV
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

Post by JTV » 07 Jan 2019 19:35

Art wrote:
07 Jan 2019 11:46
Order of battle of the 10 Division also lists what they call "lohkoaseet". Weapons permanently installed in fortifications probably?
At least some of the seem to be. 45 K/40-k is Finnish-built 45-mm bunker gun. some more info about it:
viewtopic.php?t=70091&start=1050

Also when it came to Finnish field army 7.92 kk/08 (German MG-08 Maxim) in its use were typically used in bunkers. 7.62 kk/09 would be standard 7.62 x 54R caliber Maxim m1910, which might in this case be installed into bunkers and various other field forficications (machinegun-nests, machinegun-cupolas, rotating machinegun-shields etc) - or not. It is known that Maxim m1910 were used in Finnish field fortifications at that time in large numbers, but they were also used by Finnish infantry in their regular role as heavy machinegun. Standard Finnish Continuation War era bunker mount was m/40, which had been designed to be compatible with both MG-08 or Maxim m/1910. MG-cupolas had either DT or m/1910, while rotating MG-shields were used with Maxims m/1910. It is worth noting that in general building of concrete bunkers to frontline was difficult due to constant enemy contact, so Finnish defenses in trench-war period frontline tended to be mostly field fortification variety - in other words structures build from wood and soil with things like rotating MG-cupolas and MG-shields sometimes installed in them.

Some previous discussion about Finnish cupolas:
viewtopic.php?f=70&t=135776&p=1187164

37-mm antitank-guns (37 K/36 and 37 K/40) may simply have been used as dedicated direct-fire guns in frontline.

Jarkko

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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

Post by Art » 08 Jan 2019 16:16

A simple question: who operated those weapons? When the 10 Division replaced the 18th were their crews replaced as well?

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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

Post by Tommy R » 09 Jan 2019 22:54

A map from "Kutsui ääni isänmaa JR58 1941-44" showing JR58s deployment around Rajajoki.
jr58.jpg
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

Post by Wolf » 10 Jan 2019 17:52

Tommy R wrote:
09 Jan 2019 22:54
A map from "Kutsui ääni isänmaa JR58 1941-44....
Great map, Tommy - thanks!

Is it known what Soviet forces were deployed against JR58 and roughly how the attack developed?

Mosjtajanski indicates it was the 109th Army Corps, but he also has "the Million Bunker" in the JR58 sector - supposedly this is a case of the author being confused with the Sj 5 bunker, Summa sector during the Winter War and a Soviet bunker captured by the Finns in 1941 and used as a command central by JR58's first company...

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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 10 Jan 2019 17:57


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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

Post by JTV » 10 Jan 2019 21:20

Art wrote:
08 Jan 2019 16:16
A simple question: who operated those weapons? When the 10 Division replaced the 18th were their crews replaced as well?
As far as I know at least the weapons placed in permanent fortifications (*) were normally allocated to new unit along the fortifications to which they belonged. While I am not sure in what extent the same practice existed with field fortifications, in immediate frontline it would have made sense for the system to work in similar manner for the field fortifications as well, since replacing heavy weapons would have been difficult and dangerous. Hence when division was replaced, I would assume that the new division simply signed off the heavy weapons installed to fortifications in the sectors of frontline in which it took responsibility.

(*) Finnish military divided fortifications to two basic categories - permanent fortifications (kestolinnoite/kantalinnoite) which would include things like ferroconcrete bunkers built by special units and often already before the war vs. field forfications (kenttälinnoite) which included trenches, dug-outs, machinegun nests etc build from wood and soil typically by normal military units during the war.

Jarkko

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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

Post by Tommy R » 10 Jan 2019 21:37

The bunker:
133325_r500.jpg
There are quite a lot of images from the area at SA-kuva.fi if you search for Rajajoki, mostly from 1943.
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Tommy R
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

Post by Tommy R » 10 Jan 2019 21:52

Image showing the relative strengths and the units involved in the initial attack:
Webp.net-resizeimage.jpg
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