Bofors 40mm In Finland

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John T
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Bofors 40mm In Finland

Post by John T » 28 Apr 2019 09:10

I like to start a new thread on the issue of 40mm Bofors guns i Finland.
Juha Tompuri wrote:
09 Mar 2019 12:30
Image
https://kirjapino.fi/product/itsenaisen ... tatykit-2/

According to above (if I understood correctly) the first 8 guns from Hungary came during spring(?) -39 (were ready when the war broke out) and 22 during the extra rehersals.
December -39 Germany confiscated the batch of 12 guns on their way via Germany to Finland. After Winter War, during the spring -40, Germany released those 12 guns to Finland.

I found two Finnish books on the issue,
"Itsenäisen Suomen ilmatorjuntatykit 1917- 2000" and Palmu Pentti's "Soumen ilmatarjunnan vaiheita 1925-1990"
I have copied a few pages from the above books - Swedish army muséum has arefernce library but it is more administrative work to actually borrow the books than just read it in situ.

And not to forgetting Talvisodan Historia part 4
Terry Gardners book on the 40mm Bofors also contains some data on Finland.
Swedish printed sources almost exclusively uses a list provided to PA Hanson after the winter war but that lists what Swedish government allowed to be sent not when and what was actually sent. The numbers seems rather consistent but the dates does not fit Finnish data.


In page 54 in "Soumen ilmatarjunnan vaiheita 1925-1990",there is a table of available guns at different times and if I understands it correct the source is given as Ev. K. Huuhka.

can anyone help me about the work of colonel(?) Huuhka ?


I think it would be a good idea to start with the Finnish Navy's inventory, hopefully reducing the confusion a bit.

And then to the translation assistance:
Soumen ilmatarjunnan vaiheita 1925-1990, Page 52 wrote: Ruotsista ja sen kautta saatiin 68 kpl 40 mm;n kenttälavettisia ja 4 kpl laivastolavettisisa
Bought from Sweden 68 guns in fieldmounts and 4 naval mount.
Anyone knows if "laivastolavettisisa" also can be used for any fixed mount?
Or are these specific naval mounts?

The two 40mm Bofors guns used by Swedish volunteers(SFK) in Turku had Swedish designation M/36 and
had previously been used aboard the Swedish auxilliary minlayer "Drottning Victoria.
So they where actual naval mounts.
But as they where in SFK, Finnish sources seems to count them out,
until transferred to Finnish units when SFK demobilized.
Thus counted as delivieries during the interim peace.

Bofors also supplied four fixed mounts from their Dutch order in January 1940.



And 40mm inventory at some dates:
Soumen ilmatarjunnan vaiheita 1925-1990, Page 54 wrote: 6 oct 9
30 Nov 53 *
31 Dec 78
2 Feb 78
13/3 100

* Näistä meripoulustuksella oli 16 kpl ja koulutusyksiköillä muutamia
Kaikkiaan saatiin maahan sodan aikana n. 120 kpl.
* Of these Navy had 16 pieces and a few in training units.
In total there were about 120 pieces in the country during the war.

These 16 Navy guns where ordinary field mounts from the Hungarian order?


Cheers from John T,
looking for any advice

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Re: Bofors 40mm In Finland

Post by John T » 28 Apr 2019 10:08

While "Itsenäisen Suomen ilmatorjuntatykit 1917- 2000"

claims the navy only had 4 ItK 38 Routsi on the 30/11 39
(page 93)

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Re: Bofors 40mm In Finland

Post by JTV » 17 May 2019 05:25

John T wrote:
28 Apr 2019 10:08
While "Itsenäisen Suomen ilmatorjuntatykit 1917- 2000"

claims the navy only had 4 ItK 38 Routsi on the 30/11 39
(page 93)
The numbers on that book seem to be off. It is known that there were 6 guns total of the version specifically designed for naval use and they were all on coastal defense ships Ilmarinen and Väinämöinen. To be more specific each of those two ships had one dual barrel gun in front of command tower and two single barrel guns on further back (one on each side of ship). Those six guns were water-cooled, stabilized and the dual-barrel gun could be linked to ship's (Hazemeyer) mechanical fire control computer.

There were 40 mm Bofors guns installed to numerous other Finnish ships & patrol boats as well (gun boats Uusimaa & Hämeenmaa, minelayers Ruotsinsalmi & Riilahti, auxiliary gun boats Aunus & Viena, patrol boat Vasama and numerous VMV patrol boats), but they all were apparently standard version of the gun modified to naval use by simply removing lower parts of gun carriage (wheels, axles etc) and installing the rest on ship's deck. It seems that these ships & patrol boats except Hämeenmaa each had one 40 mm gun per ship, while Hämeenmaa had two guns on its rear deck.

What complicates things is that Army, Navy and Air Force seem to have typically kept their own seperate inventory lists and Navy inventory does not contain only the guns on its ships (Fleet), but often also guns of Coastal Defense units, since Coastal Defense was part of Navy.

SA-kuva.fi photo archive photo number 30214 - single barrel gun on Ilmarinen.
Image

SA-kuva.fi photo archive photo number 32955 - dual barrel gun on Ilmarinen.
Image

SA-kuva.fi photo archive photo number 89414 - gun on Uusimaa.
Image

Jarkko

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Re: Bofors 40mm In Finland

Post by Juha Tompuri » 17 May 2019 07:06

JTV wrote:
17 May 2019 05:25
John T wrote:
28 Apr 2019 10:08
While "Itsenäisen Suomen ilmatorjuntatykit 1917- 2000"

claims the navy only had 4 ItK 38 Routsi on the 30/11 39
(page 93)
The numbers on that book seem to be off.
I think not, because of the date mentioned.
Actually right now I can*t remember any Finnish Navy ships armed with 40mm Bofors during the Winter War.
Icebreaker Tarmo perhaps being one.


It is known that there were 6 guns total of the version specifically designed for naval use and they were all on coastal defense ships Ilmarinen and Väinämöinen. To be more specific each of those two ships had one dual barrel gun in front of command tower and two single barrel guns on further back (one on each side of ship). Those six guns were water-cooled, stabilized and the dual-barrel gun could be linked to ship's (Hazemeyer) mechanical fire control computer.
Somehow I only remember the twin guns being stabilized.
There were 40 mm Bofors guns installed to numerous other Finnish ships & patrol boats as well (gun boats Uusimaa & Hämeenmaa, minelayers Ruotsinsalmi & Riilahti, auxiliary gun boats Aunus & Viena, patrol boat Vasama and numerous VMV patrol boats)
Also I understand that auxiliary gun boat Viena did not have a Bofors, but 3x20mm Madsen as its AA defence.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Bofors 40mm In Finland

Post by Juha Tompuri » 17 May 2019 11:08

Juha Tompuri wrote:
17 May 2019 07:06
Actually right now I can*t remember any Finnish Navy ships armed with 40mm Bofors during the Winter War.
Icebreaker Tarmo perhaps being one.
Book Suomen Laivasto 1918-1968 mentions Tarmo being fitted 2 x 40mm Bofors in Mach-40
There is also a mention that icebreaker Voima received 2 x 40mm guns (type not mentioned)

Regards, Juha

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Re: Bofors 40mm In Finland

Post by JTV » 17 May 2019 19:05

Juha Tompuri wrote:
17 May 2019 07:06
JTV wrote:
17 May 2019 05:25

The numbers on that book seem to be off.
I think not, because of the date mentioned.
Actually right now I can*t remember any Finnish Navy ships armed with 40mm Bofors during the Winter War.
Icebreaker Tarmo perhaps being one.
It seems you are probably correct. I did some digging on my harddrive and found a document, which is undated, but it has hand written changes with changes listed done in 25th of March 1940. It seems to be a master list of some sort about all guns in Finnish inventory.

It lists following 40 mm Bofors guns:
- 40 ItK/39 B.........mobile.......number of guns: 120........captured/lost: -2........arriving to country: -........total: 118 (crossed over and "126" hand written next to it). Additional hand written marking says "8 of these from Swedish volunteers".
- 40 ItK/39 BK.......fixed..........number of guns: 4...........captured/lost: -.........arriving to country: 4........total: 8 Additional hand written marking: "with Navy"

The report belongs to archive documents originating from Ordnance Department (of Armed Forces GHQ) and is in folder T-18419/1.

The document preceding it in archive folder Ordnance Department report to Commander of Artillery in General Headquarters in October of 1940, so this document may have been attachments to earlier report to same recipient.

Ships are not really my thing and I just posted what I had in hand. According Itsenäisen Suomen laivaston laivatykit 1918-2014 (The Naval Guns of Finland 1918 - 2004) by Kiiskinen and Wahlström page 88 the naval versions of 40 mm Bofors guns used in Ilmarinen and Väinämöinen were all stabilized, although the dual barrel version was gyro-stabilized and single-barrel guns manually stabilized. According that same book page 94 auxiliary gunboat Viena apparently got its 40 mm Bofors in late 1942.

Jarkko
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Re: Bofors 40mm In Finland

Post by Juha Tompuri » 18 May 2019 23:13

JTV wrote:the naval versions of 40 mm Bofors guns used in Ilmarinen and Väinämöinen were all stabilized, although the dual barrel version was gyro-stabilized and single-barrel guns manually stabilized
Thanks.
Didn't know/remember the stabilization of the single barrel guns.


The gun arrangement of auxillary gunboat Viena.
Photos dated 1943-01-14

Front deck.
102mm naval gun and 20mm Madsen
Image SA photo 46501

Rear deck.
Two 20mm Madsen
Image SA photo 46483

Image SA photo 46487



Gun arrangement of auxillary gunboat Aunus.

Front deck.
130mm naval gun and a 20mm Madsen.
Photo mentioned to have been dated 1942-07-15 (AFAIK that photo was taken on 1943-7-15)
Image

Rear deck.
40mm Bofors and 20mm Madsen
Photos dated 1943-01-14
Image SA photo 46473

Image SA photo 46470

More photos:
Viena: https://www.sotasampo.fi/fi/units/page/actor_12641
Aunus: https://www.sotasampo.fi/fi/units/page/actor_2269

Regards, Juha

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Re: Bofors 40mm In Finland

Post by John T » 19 May 2019 16:42

JTV wrote:
17 May 2019 05:25
What complicates things is that Army, Navy and Air Force seem to have typically kept their own seperate inventory lists and Navy inventory does not contain only the guns on its ships (Fleet), but often also guns of Coastal Defense units, since Coastal Defense was part of Navy.
Yes, and In Sweden they also had some guns "on loan" while others where the ownership directly transferred to the Navy.
(Like in when Terry Gardners book on the Bofors 40 says Sweden delivered 12 Austrian guns to Finland in 1942.
but it actually was just a transfer of ownership from Swedish Army to Swedish Navy.

While in 1939 the SFK Volunteers got 8 guns owned by the Army operated by the Navy (coastal artillery for base defense) ,
and in return the Navy received 8 ex-Dutch fixed mounts(Seized by Swedish government).

JTV wrote:
17 May 2019 05:25
SA-kuva.fi photo archive photo number 30214 - single barrel gun on Ilmarinen.
Image
Single Water-cooled, and If I got it right the guy with his back towards the photographer is the "manual stabilization"
the four guns where shipped from Stockholm aboard SS Acturus on the 16 January 1941.
JTV wrote:
17 May 2019 05:25

SA-kuva.fi photo archive photo number 32955 - dual barrel gun on Ilmarinen.
Image
SA-kuva.fi photo archive photo number 58455 - Väinämöinen
Image
These two gun mounts, with Bofors named "mount number 6"
where delivered late summer 1940.

JTV wrote:
17 May 2019 05:25


SA-kuva.fi photo archive photo number 89414 - gun on Uusimaa.
Image
Looks like "plain Jane" Bolted on Bofors.

Thanks
/John

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Re: Bofors 40mm In Finland

Post by John T » 19 May 2019 17:48

Juha Tompuri wrote:
17 May 2019 11:08
Juha Tompuri wrote:
17 May 2019 07:06
Actually right now I can*t remember any Finnish Navy ships armed with 40mm Bofors during the Winter War.
Icebreaker Tarmo perhaps being one.
Book Suomen Laivasto 1918-1968 mentions Tarmo being fitted 2 x 40mm Bofors in Mach-40
There is also a mention that icebreaker Voima received 2 x 40mm guns (type not mentioned)

Regards, Juha
Voima was in Stockholm on the 16 to 18:th February.
Sisu was in Stockholm on the 17 to 22:th February.
(From Stockholm harbour list)

And a Swedish Artillery officer Edvard af Sandeberg was stationed on the Icebraker Sisu between 15 to 28 February.
According to "Swedish naval volunteers in Finland"
But Sisu seems to been armed with Vickers when searching in sa-kuva, like pic 72182

Reason I getting into this is that I got four 40mm fixed Bofors mounts that might gone to Finland
But I can't find the details - There are already four guns with fixed mounts mentioned i both Finnish books (see my first post)
And this is additional four guns and sending them to the Finnish Navy would be a good way to confuse matters.
Found in the next post ?

And by the way - searching for Sisu I found this clip:
https://www.elonet.fi//fi/elokuva/604805
and some forty seconds into it a ship named m/s Canopus makes her entrance..
That ship might come back in this story..

Cheers
/John

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Re: Bofors 40mm In Finland

Post by John T » 19 May 2019 18:19

JTV wrote:
17 May 2019 19:05

It seems you are probably correct. I did some digging on my harddrive and found a document, which is undated, but it has hand written changes with changes listed done in 25th of March 1940. It seems to be a master list of some sort about all guns in Finnish inventory.

It lists following 40 mm Bofors guns:
- 40 ItK/39 B.........mobile.......number of guns: 120........captured/lost: -2........arriving to country: -........total: 118 (crossed over and "126" hand written next to it). Additional hand written marking says "8 of these from Swedish volunteers".
- 40 ItK/39 BK.......fixed..........number of guns: 4...........captured/lost: -.........arriving to country: 4........total: 8 Additional hand written marking: "with Navy"

The report belongs to archive documents originating from Ordnance Department (of Armed Forces GHQ) and is in folder T-18419/1.

The document preceding it in archive folder Ordnance Department report to Commander of Artillery in General Headquarters in October of 1940, so this document may have been attachments to earlier report to same recipient.
Jarkko
This is simply more than good!
So this list was compiled sometimes before March 25
For the Swedish accounting it makes little difference as the last 8 guns "original-British" order at Bofors crossed the border on March 6 1940.
Thereafter there were no further Swedish deliveries.
Only transfers through Sweden, stuck in the railroad jam between Norwegian harbours and Tornio.
(have not sorted them out yet)
At least during the winter war era - only the Naval guns mentioned above


And you got the second batch of four 40 Itk/39 BK as arriving - that's the one I was missing in the printed books.
Actually from Dutch order.

At that date I got the Swedish Volunteers Air defense at 11 Bofors 40mm , + one sent back to Boden for repairs.
In April four of these guns returned to Sweden.

As I wrote in a previous post:
While in 1939 the SFK Volunteers got 8 guns owned by the Army operated by the Navy (coastal artillery for base defense) ,
and in return the Navy received 8 ex-Dutch fixed mounts(Seized by Swedish government).

And a few days later Sweden Seized another 12 Duch fixed mounts,
But now it is clear that 8 of these 20 Dutch guns, fixed with predictors, went east to Finland.

Cheers
/John
Last edited by John T on 19 May 2019 20:06, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Bofors 40mm In Finland

Post by John T » 19 May 2019 18:52

Image
Pic( 97851)

"Vartiomoottoriveneen perä.
Ulko-Tammio 1942.07.14"
Finnish MBT

. Found out that I cant explain in words only.
- a picture says more than 100 words:
Inked97851_LI (3d).jpg
The thing inside the "circle" is the later "sight transmission gear" the two "pipes" going forward to the sights the "thing" with two knobs on the port side of the breach block. In Swedish m/37 or m/39 - almost idential from outside.

And the box the arrow is pointing at the calculator "ennakkolaskin"

That means it 's not Austrian Goertz sight, nor the early Hungarians,
So I assume it is a "Dutch order" gun.


But it might also indicate that guns where transferred between different ships
- not shure when the MBT's arrived in FInland but it might been much later than the Bofors gun.
If not built in Finland(?)


cheers
/John
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Re: Bofors 40mm In Finland

Post by John T » 19 May 2019 19:08

Juha Tompuri wrote:
18 May 2019 23:13

Gun arrangement of auxillary gunboat Aunus.
Rear deck.
40mm Bofors and 20mm Madsen
Photos dated 1943-01-14
Image SA photo 46470
I'm pretty shure this is the Austrian Goertz predictor.
Austrian.jpg
From Swedish manual:
IMG_6104.jpg
Cheers
/John
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Re: Bofors 40mm In Finland

Post by John T » 19 May 2019 20:00

Another Austrian:
Image
IT-toimintaa Mellonmäellä.
Imatra. 1939.12.16
sa-kuva.fi Picture a_86
This one got the same tell tale reflex sight electrical cable enters horizontaly as on the Austrian drawing from the Swedish manual.

Image
IT-tykki Karhumäellä.
Tainionkoski. 1939.12.13
sa-kuva.fi Picture a_89

Even more obvious Austrian - all the Stuff on the right side of the breach block,
The "jar" over the reflex sight is just a cover for the otherwise open reflex mirror.
So you know the picture is rigged.


and at last The Hungarians, at Malmin 1941

Image
sa-kuva.fi Picture: 20458

Caption:
It-patteri. ??Tulta??
Helsinki, Malmi 1941.06.25

Here we got the original Bofors predictor, used on Swedish guns with production number less than 350
and the Hungarian guns used by Sweden and as the Finns Hungarian order was behind the Swedes with a few months I assume the
Hungarian guns in Finland had the same "m/ä" predictor and transmission system.

like this:
Image
sa-kuva.fi Picture: 24868
caption:
Kuvan tykki on ruotsalainen Boforsin 40 mm:n ilmatorjuntakanuuna.

It would have been fun to zoom in to see the serial number , If it was between 201 and 208,
it would have been a Hungarian gun bought by Sweden in 1938.
Loaned to Finland for training purpose in Spring of 1939.
Transfer of ownership to Finland in September 1939 when Sweden swapped the first 8 guns from Finnish -Hungarian order
with the Swedish ones already in Finland.


Cheers
/John

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Re: Bofors 40mm In Finland

Post by Juha Tompuri » 20 May 2019 06:41

Hi John!

Thanks for our input here too.
Here a link to a Finnish forum (has been inoperative for moths now. Problems with the update AFAIK. )
The link goes to discussion of existing 40mm Bofors guns in Finland:
http://pkymasehist.fi/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=12892

Regards, Juha

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Re: Bofors 40mm In Finland

Post by JTV » 21 May 2019 18:01

Some more bits from the the same archive folder as the previous one:

Another list from the same bundle as the previous one. It is undated as well, but data suggests that it likely from slightly later date than the previous one - could be April of 1940 or so. The guns listed on that one:
- 40 ItK/38 B.....light mobile anti-aircraft gun m/36 Bofors....
- 40 ItK/38 B.....light mobile anti-aircraft gun m/38 Bofors.... combined total for all three guns 120 changed to by hand to 128. Marked "8 of these to Swedish volunteers".
- 40 ItK/39 B.....light mobile anti-aircraft gun m/39 Bofors....

- 40 ItK/39 BK....light fixed anti-aircraft gun m/39 Bofors....total number: 4....with Navy

Another earlier master inventory list, which is dated 6th of January 1940. It apparently lists all versions as "40 I/38" and as "40 mm anti-aircraft gun Bofors) with 92 + 2? marked as total number. Although I am not sure if this list contains also Navy guns.

Jarkko
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