Finnish air support at Sukho (Suho)

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BarSeek
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Re: Suho Lighthouse

Post by BarSeek » 14 Mar 2013 20:37

Juha Tompuri wrote:Some additional info can also be found here:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=197379
Regards, Juha
Thanks for the link, Juha. May I add some more on the matter here ?

The loss of I-6 was rather mysterious thing as there is no clear evidence that she was towed by #21 at the moment of abandonment. There is a record in the diary of Laivasto-Osasto Kijanen about the loss of I-6 : "Taistelun aikana (06.00-13.00) katosi yksi I-vene, joka oli nähty ryssien hinauksessa" that looks like the boat "disappeared" from Germans at some moment within 7-hour time range and she was seen towed by Russians. She could be probably lost just due to towing rope getting loose or being cut by splinters. In the conditions when #21's hulls were leaking and bilge pumps malfunctioning, Germans hardly were eager to turn back towards Suho catching I-6 being under fire.

Ferry numbers used in German reports were called "tactical" so I don't think the names like "SF-21" are correct. On arrival to Ladoga in July 1942 Siebel ferries had different 3-digit numbers. Same is probably correct for infantry boats as the boat mentioned in German reports as "X-1" had that tactical number painted on her bulwark and "J-O-5" painted on her side. Btw since headquarter ferry was "X-2" then I have some doubts if "Y-1" mentioned in report as towed by T-4 (due to loss of her steering ability) was a hospital ferry. "Y-1" must be hospital boat (not ferry) and hospital ferry was obviously "Y-2" (see battle diagram from Seppälä's book above).

In German accounts they reported #21 was set on fire by the guns of #11 and #23 and she was observed behind "as burning torch" until 15.30. So Germans did not report #21 was scuttled.

I still have no info if DB-51 in Soviet use was one of the lost ferries or she was a "compillation" of usable parts taken from other lost ferries. She was unlucky one anyway as after bombing by Soviet an German aircrafts near Suho in 1942 she received direct hit from Finnish bomber in June 1944 in landing operation near Tuulos.

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Re: Suho Lighthouse

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Mar 2013 21:23

BarSeek wrote:Thanks for the link, Juha. May I add some more on the matter here ?
Yes, please.

According to another German report, it seems that the fighting at the island itself was not that fierce as I have understood earlier.
It mentions that the Germans used (only) 1288 submachine gun and 460 machine gun ammo and 47 hand grenades at the Island.
But the artillery fire against the Island from the ferries and boats was very intensive.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Suho Lighthouse

Post by BarSeek » 22 Mar 2013 07:18

Juha Tompuri wrote:
BarSeek wrote:According to another German report, it seems that the fighting at the island itself was not that fierce as I have understood earlier. ...
But the artillery fire against the Island from the ferries and boats was very intensive.
Total number of men on Suho was about 100, that number included Suho battery, lighthouse and observation post personnel. Commander of Suho battery 1st lt Gusev evaluated his battery losses before island fighting itself as 40-45 percent of battery personnel and about 50 percent as total losses for 22.10.42. Losses included KIA and WIA. So according his relative figures the battery losses were caused mostly by AAA fire before and after German landing. Gusev wrote his records in 1960's.
According war diary of minesweeper TSCH-100 (ТЩ-100) they received on board from Suho 6 KIA, 23 WIA and 4 German KIA. 6 men were lost as POWs.

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Re: Suho Lighthouse

Post by Juha Tompuri » 28 Apr 2013 21:58

BarSeek wrote:"Y-1" must be hospital boat (not ferry)
Image SA-photo 104663
photo caption wrote:One I-boat is constructed as a hospital (fisrt aid) boat.
Lake Ladoga 13th August 1942
Regards, Juha

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Re: Suho Lighthouse

Post by BarSeek » 29 Apr 2013 07:36

Juha Tompuri wrote:
BarSeek wrote:"Y-1" must be hospital boat (not ferry)
SA-photo 104663
photo caption wrote:One I-boat is constructed as a hospital (fisrt aid) boat.
Lake Ladoga 13th August 1942
Well, I made that conclusion from Finnish liaison officer's report about EFO raid 8/9.10.42. At the end of report he mentioned that he was all the time at headquarter ferry X2 excluding the time when they saved papers from sinking Soviet patrol boat MO-175, being onboard of boat X1.

See report : http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=2905374

Hospital ferry (distinguished by "red cross" sign) as seen at SA-photo 105945 was Y2 (see on sidewall).
105945-cropped.jpg
SA-photo 105945 (cropped)

In the raid 8/9.10.42 headquarter ferry X2 was followed by boat X1 side by side and hospital ferry Y2 was followed by boat Y1 side by side.
raid_october842.jpg
See German battle drawing : http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3605145

When X2 was headquarter ferry and Y2 was hospitat ferry then it looks odd X1 being first-aid boat. Moreover, first-aid boat probably had to be distinguished by "red cross" signs like hospital ferry.

So I guess photo caption is wrong.
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Re: Suho Lighthouse

Post by Juha Tompuri » 29 Apr 2013 20:10

Seems that "x-1" and "y-1" were not I-boots at all as there are already seven I-boots at the "left line": J-1 - J-7 ?

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3605151
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Re: Suho Lighthouse

Post by Juha Tompuri » 29 Apr 2013 21:03

Ooops...Ah...sorry, didn't first notice that your document was not from the Suho raid.
Image http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3605145
BarSeek wrote:In the raid 8/9.10.42 headquarter ferry X2 was followed by boat X1 side by side and hospital ferry Y2 was followed by boat Y1 side by side.
X1 perhaps being the Kommanderboot and Y1 the Arztboot

Here the relevant scan:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3604660
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Re: Suho Lighthouse

Post by BarSeek » 30 Apr 2013 20:07

Juha Tompuri wrote:Ooops...Ah...sorry, didn't first notice that your document was not from the Suho raid.
Actually it was the first of three Suho raids.
An order for operation "Brasil" was issued 6.10.42.

8.10.42 at 16.00 hauptman Ritter informed Detachment K that EFO depart to Suho at 15.00
At 17.00 Lt.Col. Siebel informed Detachment K about raid to Suho 8-9.10.42
(see http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=2905295)

9.10.42 at 5.10 controversy arose between EFO navigation officer and Capt. von Ramm from KM boat group as they had different opinions about coordinates of the point where they were at the moment. Since they were not sure about the place, raid to Suho was canceled.
(see : http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=2905374)

12.10.42 at 15.00 Lt.Col. Siebel informed Detachment K about EFO raid to Suho 12-13.10.42
(see http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=2905301)
13.10 at 00.40 operation was canceled due to navigation reasons as EFO lost their position again.
(see http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3605118 and http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=2905303)

Only in the third raid 21-22.10.42 EFO had success and they reached Suho.

BTW, detailed aerial view of Suho :
http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=60.408 ... orm=LMLTCC

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Re: Suho Lighthouse

Post by Juha Tompuri » 30 Apr 2013 20:44

BarSeek wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:Ooops...Ah...sorry, didn't first notice that your document was not from the Suho raid.
Actually it was the first of three Suho raids.
Yes, My bad.
I should have written "the Suho raid".
Thanks for the clarification.

Regards, Juha

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Finnish air support at Sukho (Suho)

Post by mfy4444 » 13 Apr 2020 16:00

Hello all. I am trying to research what Finnish air elements would have been present during the Sukho lighthouse attack on October 22, 1942. And also any details about their operations there, such as losses, claims, etc. One of the after-action reports of the German EFO credits Finnish fighters with shooting down four Soviet planes (although overall the same report gives a total of 20 Soviet planes shot down-- German fighters of JG 54 credited with 11 of those in the report, although they only claimed seven in their own reports-- and at any rate the claims seem high because from Soviet reports actual losses to all causes were only five planes). The Soviets claimed 14 Axis planes shot down, but JG 54 does not appear to have lost any. Also, I've read one reference (one only) to what seems to have been an attack by four bombers just before the landing on Sukho, was this perhaps an Axis attack to precede the actual landing, or an early Soviet response? Note the painting below of Soviet minesweeper TSch-100 (former Finnish Aunus) in action off Sukho during the attack-- which I got from another post here on this forum-- the two-engined plane that either TSch-100 or the I-16 fighter in the background just shot down has what looks to be German markings, but the plane itself looks a lot like it could be a Finnish Blenheim. Of course, the painting could be fanciful but I wonder if any Blenheims or other Finnish bombers were involved in the action (the German after-action report also notes that Axis aircraft did little to discourage the Soviet gunboats that chased the attacking force as they withdrew, without specifying what kinds of aircraft or even if they were German or Finnish). Any help much appreciated.

Regards and thanks

Mike Yaklich
file:///home/mfy/Desktop/thumbnail_image.jpg

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Re: Finnish air support at Sukho (Suho)

Post by mfy4444 » 13 Apr 2020 16:02

Apologies, the image did not come through on my last try, I did it wrong. Here is the picture of TSch-100 at Sukho:

[img]file:///home/mfy/Desktop/thumbnail_image.jpg[/img]

Regards

Mike Yaklich
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Re: Finnish air support at Sukho (Suho)

Post by Mikko H. » 13 Apr 2020 16:20

Keskinen & Stenman in Suomen ilmavoimat - Finnish Air Force 1942, pp. 183–184, state that the Fiats of LLv 26 claimed 2 x I-16 and 1 x I-153 confirmed, 1 x Pe-2 probable and 1 x I-16 damaged over Lake Ladoga on that day. Russian records confirm the loss of 2 x I-16 from 11 AP KBF and 1 x Pe-2 from 4 GPBAP KBF. Finns suffered no losses.

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Re: Finnish air support at Sukho (Suho)

Post by Mikko H. » 13 Apr 2020 16:30

The relevant text from the aforementioned book.
IMG_2175.jpeg
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Re: Finnish air support at Sukho (Suho)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 13 Apr 2020 19:11

Merged the new posts to the older ones about the Suho lighthouse attack.

/Juha

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Re: Finnish air support at Sukho (Suho)

Post by Mangrove » 14 Apr 2020 17:10

mfy4444 wrote:
13 Apr 2020 16:00
Of course, the painting could be fanciful but I wonder if any Blenheims or other Finnish bombers were involved in the action (the German after-action report also notes that Axis aircraft did little to discourage the Soviet gunboats that chased the attacking force as they withdrew, without specifying what kinds of aircraft or even if they were German or Finnish).
According to a summary by the HQ of Finnish Air Force, there were no Finnish bomber missions over Lake Ladoga on 22 October 1942. Finnish 40 mm from 11. Kevyt Ilmatorjuntapatteri fired upon a Soviet bomber near Sortanlahti at 2.40 p.m. in order to point it out to the Finnish Air Force Fiat G.50 fighters from Lentolaivue 26.

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