Jukkola battery

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Mangrove
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Re: Jukkola battery

Post by Mangrove » 04 Apr 2021 07:43

ML wrote:
03 Apr 2021 20:47
It is difficult to scale and place the overlay exactly, as there is only one fixed grid reference. I would say the overlay drawing is now in a bit larger scale than topographic map.
Eugenius wrote:
04 Apr 2021 00:54
The easiest explanation is that Finnish soldiers had no GPS positioning devices to define actual co-ordinates of the objects. :) More realistic would be to understand that the maps and positioning capabilities of those times were far less accurate than those we have now.
I have adjusted the size of the overlay based on known paper size. The adjusted coordinates are off by 30-50 metres to the coordinates posted by Eugenius earlier. Based on how one draws, interprets and measures the centre of the symbols on the overlays, the coordinates can change some 10-15 metres any direction. The adjusted approximate WGS84 coordinates from karjalankartat.fi are as follows:

First 152/45/C: 60.17046, 29.13868
Second 152/45/C: 60.16754, 29.15554
Third 152/45/C: 60.16526, 29.15220

"Keskiö": 60.16911, 29.15506
Rangefinder and observation post: 60.16731, 29.15025
150 cm searchlight at Uskilanmäki: 60.17099, 29.11727
150 cm searchlight at Toni ("Tonin mittausasema ja valonheitin" on 15 August 1942): 60.16684, 29.19666

Approximate WGS84 coordinates for the 16 October 1942 overlay:

"29. Rask. Ptri": 60.16834, 29.14986
Westernmost triangle, mortar position "at the edge of the ridge": 60.16695, 29.15222
Easternmost triangle, mortar position "at the edge of the ridge": 60.16694, 29.15334

"210.Kev.Ptri": 60.16289, 29.14502

210. Kevyt Patteri had four 75/K/17 guns at Laivastoniemi on 11 July 1942.
14. Torjuntakomppania (14. TK) had two bases around Laivastoniemi in 1943:

Juhola (unmanned): 60.16683, 29.13464
Torppa: 60.16565, 29.16043 and 60.16544, 29.16296

29_Rask_Ptri_1942_4.jpg
29_Rask_Ptri_1942_5.jpg
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Eugenius
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Re: Jukkola battery

Post by Eugenius » 04 Apr 2021 13:45

Gentlemen, I added newly defined points to the map: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit? ... 89014&z=14

I also made the simplest approximation of 2 searchlight positions. It's quite obvious that initially mapped positions of southern gun, range-finder and eastern gun are shifted eastwards to roughly similar distance and angle compared to known actual position of those objects:

Southern gun - 3 degrees, 350 m
Eastern gun - 7 degrees, 487 m
Range-finder - 9 degrees, 358 m

It's quite different for the western gun, but I just denied this fact not matching my theory. :wink: So the average difference would be 6,3 degrees and 398 m. I supposed that actual search-light positions could be shifted alike compared to what shown on the map. However, 2 of 4 newly defined search-light positions are again located in cottage settlements though 2 others may be checked. Hope to get there in a couple of weeks, when snow melts down.

How search-light positions could look like? Is it rectangular concrete basement or just a barely visible pit in earth? And might the concrete basement with rectangular hole, which pictures I posted earlier, have any relation to the battery?

Mangrove
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Re: Jukkola battery

Post by Mangrove » 04 Apr 2021 14:14

Eugenius wrote:
04 Apr 2021 13:45
How search-light positions could look like? Is it rectangular concrete basement or just a barely visible pit in earth? And might the concrete basement with rectangular hole, which pictures I posted earlier, have any relation to the battery?
SA-Kuva 106481, 106483, 106484, 106485 and 106486. Taken at Laivastoniemi on 31 August 1942:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

SA-Kuva 102115: "Toni observation tower". Taken at Toni on 3 August 1942. Most likely at the 51 metres high hill at WGS84 60.16722, 29.19340.

Image

SA-Kuva 102112: "View from Toni observation tower towards Laivustoniemi (sic!)". Taken at Toni on 3 August 1942.

Image

ML
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Re: Jukkola battery

Post by ML » 04 Apr 2021 15:36

I have adjusted the size of the overlay based on known paper size. The adjusted coordinates are off by 30-50 metres to the coordinates posted by Eugenius earlier. Based on how one draws, interprets and measures the centre of the symbols on the overlays, the coordinates can change some 10-15 metres any direction.
Thanks. Now the locations seem quite reasonable: fire control bunker and searchlights are on the edge of precipice, gun positions on level ground and "keskiö" dugout in a streambank which provides shelter to gunfire from sea.

BTW: If someone has interest in 6" Canet gun barrel numbers, the guns in Jukkola 1942 were:
- 1st gun #164
- 2nd gun #200
- 3rd gun #163

Eugenius
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Re: Jukkola battery

Post by Eugenius » 05 Apr 2021 01:05

Guys, don't you have any picture how the searchlight position of any Finnish artillery battery could look like? I just need to know what to pay attention to.

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Jukkola battery

Post by Juha Tompuri » 05 Apr 2021 07:38

Hi!

AFAIK usually the coastala artillery searchlight positions were not stationary.
There were two main methods of moving the searchlight from sheltered position to open.
One was using sort of elevating mechanism and the one to move the searchlight on rail track or on wheels.

Image SA-photo 125108

Image SA-photo 73676

Image
https://docplayer.fi/46314270-Isosaari- ... vitys.html

Regards, Juha

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JTV
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Re: Jukkola battery

Post by JTV » 05 Apr 2021 09:31

Considering the gun pits of 152/45 C guns were field-fortified (wood and soil, not ferroconcrete) the search light position also the search light position may have been field-fortified. But attached are construction instructions for one another alternative. These instructions for valonheitinasema (search light position) are from year 1942 manual Rannikkojoukkojen linnoitustyöopas (Fortification Work Manual for Coastal Troops) and is with searchlight elevation mechanism.

Below is also photo of Finnish coastal artillery search light position with rail tracks and search light being pushed on them out of the bunker when needed. The particular search light position in southern coast Carelian Isthmus- what I remember (it is from a trip back year 2008 - it has been a long time) the place is in Vammelsuu / Serovo. The end of bunker with large entrance seen in the photo was the "business end" for search light. There is also smaller entrance in the other end of the bunker.
Search_light_position_1942_manual.jpg
Search_light_position_Isthmus_2008.JPG
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Eugenius
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Re: Jukkola battery

Post by Eugenius » 05 Apr 2021 10:59

Gentlemen, many thanks for your info. There should be at least some concrete on searchlight positions, which will make the search much easier.
what I remember (it is from a trip back year 2008 - it has been a long time) the place is in Vammelsuu / Serovo
- exactly. It is located at 60.1966, 29.56447, there are some pictures of the object at Wikimapia.

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Jukkola battery

Post by Juha Tompuri » 05 Apr 2021 13:15

Island Mustamaa searchlight position.
The "elevator" shaft protected by a sliding cover.

Image

...photo from year 2008 :)

Mangrove
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Re: Jukkola battery

Post by Mangrove » 09 Apr 2021 18:05

Two maps from the National Archive of Finland:

Map of 210. Kevyt Patteri's positions and buildings at Laivastoniemi in August 1943 with approximate coordinates in WGS84:

1) Open machine gun nest. 60.16326, 29.14190
2-3) Open field fortified gun nest. 60.16190, 29.14545
4) Shrapnel proof dugout. 60.16409, 29.14402
5) Artillery observation post. 60.16354, 29.14332
6-10) Shrapnel-proof dugout.
11) Artillery observation post. 60.16203, 29.14657
12-13) Open field fortified gun nest. 60.16199, 29.14777
14) Open machine gun nest. 60.16117, 29.14663
15) 50 cm searchlight position. 60.16151, 29.14753
16) Open machine gun nest. 60.16327, 29.15405

210KevPtri_August_1943.jpg

Map of 29. Raskas Patteri's positions and buildings at Laivastoniemi in August or September 1943 with approximate coordinates in WGS84:

1-7) Shell proof dugout.
8-22) Shrapnel proof dugout.
23-34) Barracks.
25-26) Dugout sauna.

First 152/45/C: 60.17013, 29.13860
Second 152/45/C: 60.16772, 29.15479
Third 152/45/C: 60.16529, 29.15228

Rangefinder: 60.16723, 29.14873
"Silmä" 150 cm searchlight at Uskilanmäki: 60.17137, 29.11454
150 cm searchlight at Toni: 60.16664, 29.19420

29_Rask_Ptri_1943_August_September.jpg

List of fortifications and buildings built by 29. Raskas Patteri by April 1944:

- 6 gun emplacement,
- 1 rangefinding positions,
- 5 shell proof dugouts,
- 31 shrapnel proof dugouts,
- 2 dugout sauna,
- 2 artillery observation posts,
- 8 open machine gun nests,
- 6 open mortar positions,
- 1300 metres of trench,
- 2 searchlight positions,
- 3350 metres of barb wire obstacles,
- 7 barracks,
- 6 crew dugouts,
- 1 radar position ("Maija", German Freya/Seetatkt),
- 1 sauna.

29_Rask_Ptri_Fortifications_1944.jpg
29_Rask_Ptri_Fortifications_2_1944.jpg
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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Jukkola battery

Post by Juha Tompuri » 09 Apr 2021 20:08

Mangrove wrote:
09 Apr 2021 18:05
- 1 radar position ("Maija", German Freya/Seetatkt),
Thanks!
Didn't remember that.
The radar was successfully evacuated?
To Ulko-Tammio?

Regards, Juha

Mangrove
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Re: Jukkola battery

Post by Mangrove » 10 Apr 2021 08:04

Juha Tompuri wrote:
09 Apr 2021 20:08
The radar was successfully evacuated?
To Ulko-Tammio?
Rannikkotykistörykmentti 2, of which 29. Raskas Patteri was part of, first requested a "Funkgerät" from the HQ of the Navy in August 1943. German detachment, which arrived on 28 October 1943, completed installing the radar on 11 November 1943 and transferred control of the radar to the battery on 11 January 1944. Based on various reports from 1944, the Jukkola radar had problems resolving naval targets and large ski patrols on ice. However, it could measure air targets up to 60 kilometres. As of 2 June 1944, the radar had been in use for 220 hours.

The radar was evacuated from Jukkola to Ulko-Tammio, where it finally arrived on 14 July 1944.

Eugenius
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Re: Jukkola battery

Post by Eugenius » 10 Apr 2021 21:40

Mangrove, many thanks for additional info - I added some points you defined to https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit? ... 69095&z=14

I'm quite sure that all non-concrete/non-stone objects disappeared without a trace, especially those located close to a shoreline. However, I will report about all my findings in that area.

I wonder: was the radar on any wheeled platform or has it any concrete basement? Is it possible to define the point where it was located?

Mangrove
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Re: Jukkola battery

Post by Mangrove » 11 Apr 2021 05:39

Eugenius wrote:
10 Apr 2021 21:40
I wonder: was the radar on any wheeled platform or has it any concrete basement? Is it possible to define the point where it was located?
The radar isn't mentioned on any of the maps or lists of structures I found, suggesting it was on wheels. Also, a report dated 2 June 1944 suggest the radar should be moved from place to place along the shore to find an optimal location. I would assume the radar was located somewhere near the guns and artillery observation post on the ridge.

Eugenius
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Re: Jukkola battery

Post by Eugenius » 26 Jun 2021 16:35

Terve guys! Finally I managed to visit most of points we jointly mapped at https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit? ... 69095&z=14

Most of points brought no results - there was just forest there. There were also sand dunes, including quite high ones (the highest at 60.16687, 29.21329 was ca. 15 m high according to GPS measurement), generally quite suitable for a searchlight installation, but with no traces of any constructions or buildings on top.

What was found:

A concrete slab of 2,5 m x 3 m size at 60.16835, 29.19983 with some smaller basements nearby:

DSCF1175 Бетонная плита, 60.16835, 29.19983.JPG
DSCF1176.JPG
DSCF1178.JPG
DSCF1179.JPG

A ruin quite resembling a shelter for a searchlight with generator and other auxiliaries at 60.16742, 29.20079:

DSCF1181 Предположительно остатки прожектора батареи Юккола, 60.16742, 29.20079.JPG
To be continued...
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