The Winter War: Success or Failure for the Red Army?

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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Globalization41
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Finland's 1941 War with Russia

#61

Post by Globalization41 » 20 Jul 2004, 08:25

It seems to me that Finland went to war with
the Soviet Union in 1941 because the Red
Army occupied Finnish territory.
Thus, the
Finnish offensive was more of an
opportunistic counterattack. ... The outbreak
of the Nazi-Soviet War drastically upset the
balance of power. Combine that with the fact
that the mighty German Army had just
conquered most of Europe with little effort. ...
Your mortal enemy (who had just stolen
several of your towns and cities the year
before) has suddenly come under attack (in
a war of annihilation) by the most efficient war
machine in history. Should you try to liberate
your territory or not?

Finns Recapture Viborg

Globalization41

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Topspeed
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#62

Post by Topspeed » 20 Jul 2004, 08:57

Right G1,

I assume it was for some 500 000 Carelians in Finland a God given sign of the justice they hoped for. I assume we also had people who knew how insane attempt was it for Hitler to try to overtake whole Russia ( Finlands Marschal C.G.E.Mannerheim was certainly one of them, but assumed his forces could keep the positions whatever was the conclusion and aftermath of the war ). Had the Finns rushed to Ural like Hitler wanted we had never been able to carry responsibility for those actions. I think that freeing East-Carelia was already a bit too much, since those finnish related tribes lived in former Russian territory. Ultra nationalistic thinking was very popular those days and hard to imagine today.

regards,

Juke T :)


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finnjaeger
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#63

Post by finnjaeger » 20 Jul 2004, 16:21

[quote="Rarog: Wasn't the line broken finally and Finns faced re-settlement to Siberia, but the international situation forced the Soviets to leave those plans and compromise?[/quote]

Just a little comment about this quote: The last defence line where finns were when peace came wasn´t broken, nor did any finns face re-setlement to siberia. The finnish army was between finnish population and any russian who had re-settlement ideas. Situation was tough but under controll.

best regards, TK

Mek
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#64

Post by Mek » 21 Jul 2004, 16:41

Here's a picture of Russian infantry on a sledge pulled by
a tank in Summa. I was wondering, were these commonly
used on a battlefield during Winter War by Red Army? or
only on Karelian Isthmus against Mannerheim line? Those
sledges look like a bit improvised, or were these designed
for the purpose of getting the infantry close to fortified
lines?

Source of Picture: Kansa Taisteli -magazine n:o 2 1981

Regards,
-Pete
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Mark V
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#65

Post by Mark V » 21 Jul 2004, 20:30

Mek wrote:Here's a picture of Russian infantry on a sledge pulled by
a tank in Summa. I was wondering, were these commonly
used on a battlefield during Winter War by Red Army? or
only on Karelian Isthmus against Mannerheim line? Those
sledges look like a bit improvised, or were these designed
for the purpose of getting the infantry close to fortified
lines?
To my understanding also those were improvisations. Built in January, after it was apparent that with conventional means infantry could not cross the no-mans land.

The battles on so-called Mannerheim line ** were kinda replay of late WW1 - an static material battle, where defender held an advantage on their heavy MGs and attacker tried to use tanks to counter them - greatest difference was that practically only attacker had artillery (Finns suffered from serious shortage of ammunition - which was frustrating because firing methods were good and targets plentifull).

Regards, Mark V


** I hate the term, it was actually nothing more than the place where Finns decided to dig their two trench lines - NOTHING more

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#66

Post by Mark V » 21 Jul 2004, 20:36

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Topspeed wrote:The Winter War was rough for both sides when it comes to weather. Usually that neighborhood is lucky to get -15 C for the whole winter. In 1939-1940 winter it was -30--40. That is exceptional.
To have few days under -30C here at south or under -40C at the North Finland is not so rare.
Here more about the weather during those days:
http://www.winterwar.com/other/weather.htm

Regards, Juha
Thanks for the link Juha,

Around 2 degrees difference on average between Helsinki and Vyborg. Higher than i expected (1 degree), but no-one could say that the difference is significant.

If you cant make in -15 centigrade, i don't see how -13 centigrade would make it much easier.

Regards, Mark V

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Re: Russia's Winter War

#67

Post by Rarog » 21 Jul 2004, 21:51

Mark V wrote:
Alte Mann wrote:
As to the weather conditions and hardships, remember that both sides experienced them. The Soviet units involved were supposed to be trained to survive in the conditions and the Finns didn't have any choice but to be trained in the prevailing conditions. I don't think that climatic conditions should be considered a factor.
To get back to topic.

I agree.

So that facts are not forgotten - on average it is much colder in Russian heartland than in Finland during winters.

I guess winter could not be used as an excuse.

About Soviet performance. To my opinion invidual Red Army soldier fought stubbornly, but much else good on Soviet performance could not be said.


Mark V
Looking at weather forecasts I'd say it's always significantly colder near StPetersburg than in Mpscow or Rostov-on-Don.

And of course it makes a big difference: to endure frost sitting in a comfortable bunker or lying on a frozen barren land.

Another thing: I've seen a documentary on the Winter War and it was said that to the surprise of the researchers the Soviet regiments used in the Winter War were hardly trained to at all, not to mention special training for the specific terrain of Finland.

Rarog
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Re: Russia's Winter War

#68

Post by Rarog » 21 Jul 2004, 22:04

Mark V wrote:
Oleg Grigoryev wrote: You've gott to be kidding Mark - I've been to Karelia and I've been to Belorussia - After Karelia Belorussina winter well is more laike autumn really
Average January-February temperature is around -6 to -7 degrees celsius both on Helsinki and Minsk.

Helsinki : (lack of better substitude - maybe the Vyborg was half an degree colder) http://www.worldclimate.com/cgi-bin/dat ... 102+02974W

Minsk: http://www.worldclimate.com/cgi-bin/dat ... 102+26850W

Dont believe me - believe the statistics. We do have the effect of Gulf Stream and Belorussia lay in area of continental climate (cold winters - hot summers).


Mark V
My Atlas says - 9/ - 13 for Karelia, - 4/ - 8 for Byelorussia

Rarog
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#69

Post by Rarog » 21 Jul 2004, 22:12

finnjaeger wrote:[quote="Rarog: Wasn't the line broken finally and Finns faced re-settlement to Siberia, but the international situation forced the Soviets to leave those plans and compromise?
Just a little comment about this quote: The last defence line where finns were when peace came wasn´t broken, nor did any finns face re-setlement to siberia. The finnish army was between finnish population and any russian who had re-settlement ideas. Situation was tough but under controll.

best regards, TK[/quote]

Yeah, under Uncle Joe control :-)

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Russia's Winter War

#70

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Jul 2004, 22:30

Rarog wrote:Looking at weather forecasts I'd say it's always significantly colder near StPetersburg than in Mpscow or Rostov-on-Don.
Check the link I posted a while ago and note there that Viipuri/Viborg is North of and colder than St. Petersburg
And of course it makes a big difference: to endure frost sitting in a comfortable bunker or lying on a frozen barren land.
8O
At the end of the same link you can read how the things were then there.
Another thing: I've seen a documentary on the Winter War and it was said that to the surprise of the researchers the Soviet regiments used in the Winter War were hardly trained to at all, not to mention special training for the specific terrain of Finland.
Some of your(?) divisions had taken part to the occupatuion of Poland.
Also at the army and airforce were some veterans of Spanish Civil War and Khalkin Gol War.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Russia's Winter War

#71

Post by Mark V » 21 Jul 2004, 22:40

Looking at weather forecasts I'd say it's always significantly colder near StPetersburg than in Mpscow or Rostov-on-Don.
Really ??

St. Petersburg (Leningrad):
http://www.worldclimate.com/cgi-bin/dat ... 102+26063W

Moscow:
http://www.worldclimate.com/cgi-bin/dat ... +0004107G2

Rostov:
http://www.worldclimate.com/cgi-bin/dat ... 102+27329W

Volgograd:
http://www.worldclimate.com/cgi-bin/dat ... +0007585G2

These are long term statistics. But that was exactly the point. To evaluate how well troops operating in Finnish front should had been accumustoned to cold weather by their previous experiences in civil life, during military service and reservist training. In that purpose the long term monthly average is good tool.

It is not spectacular that the average winter temperature in Volgorad/Stalingrad wayyyyy in south is pretty similar than battle areas of Karelian Isthmus. Deep inside Eurasian continent temperatures are really hot in summer and really cold in winter - latitude plays little part there.

Practically all Soviets troops imaginable (save people living in south Ukrania, south Caucasus region and some areas in Soviet Asia) should had been accumustoned to temperatures they faced 90% of the days during Winter War.

They weren't. But the failures could not be the fault of climate.
And of course it makes a big difference: to endure frost sitting in a comfortable bunker or lying on a frozen barren land.
Like previously posted those bunkers were as rare as gold teeth. Actually the glorified Mannerheim line was just two trench lines digged to the ground. Also Finnish troops lived in miserable conditions - in "korsus" built hastily on the ground providing protection against shrapnels. Also Soviet troops build comparable shelters in few days time when lines settled. Actually Finn troops were astonished by the elaborate bunkers some encircled Soviet troops had built in short time and with little tools available (save plentifull manpower that could be sacrificed).

And Soviets didn't have to worry about the smoke rising from chimneys of stoves that was constant worry to Finns. Many times Finns had to warm their shelters only at nights - trying to prevent being targeted by bombers and artillery.


Mark V

Rarog
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Re: Russia's Winter War

#72

Post by Rarog » 21 Jul 2004, 23:02

Mark V wrote:
Looking at weather forecasts I'd say it's always significantly colder near StPetersburg than in Mpscow or Rostov-on-Don.
Really ??

St. Petersburg (Leningrad):
http://www.worldclimate.com/cgi-bin/dat ... 102+26063W

Moscow:
http://www.worldclimate.com/cgi-bin/dat ... +0004107G2

Rostov:
http://www.worldclimate.com/cgi-bin/dat ... 102+27329W

Volgograd:
http://www.worldclimate.com/cgi-bin/dat ... +0007585G2

These are long term statistics. But that was exactly the point. To evaluate how well troops operating in Finnish front should had been accumustoned to cold weather by their previous experiences in civil life, during military service and reservist training. In that purpose the long term monthly average is good tool.

It is not spectacular that the average winter temperature in Volgorad/Stalingrad wayyyyy in south is pretty similar than battle areas of Karelian Isthmus. Deep inside Eurasian continent temperatures are really hot in summer and really cold in winter - latitude plays little part there.

Practically all Soviets troops imaginable (save people living in south Ukrania, south Caucasus region and some areas in Soviet Asia) should had been accumustoned to temperatures they faced 90% of the days during Winter War.

They weren't. But the failures could not be the fault of climate.
And of course it makes a big difference: to endure frost sitting in a comfortable bunker or lying on a frozen barren land.
Like previously posted those bunkers were as rare as gold teeth. Actually the glorified Mannerheim line was just two trench lines digged to the ground. Also Finnish troops lived in miserable conditions - in "korsus" built hastily on the ground providing protection against shrapnels. Also Soviet troops build comparable shelters in few days time when lines settled. Actually Finn troops were astonished by the elaborate bunkers some encircled Soviet troops had built in short time and with little tools available (save plentifull manpower that could be sacrificed).

And Soviets didn't have to worry about the smoke rising from chimneys of stoves that was constant worry to Finns. Many times Finns had to warm their shelters only at nights - trying to prevent being targeted by bombers and artillery.


Mark V
Good. Exactly my point.

So one is forced to admit that either Stalin and Co were genuine retards for planning to invade Germany or that the Red Army wasn't ready for war and Stalin and Co weren't going to conquer Europe. :-)

Of course, Victor Suvorov (Rezun) was right when he invested so much energy in proving that in the Winter War the Red Army was brilliant, as his main goal was to prove that the SU was just about to invade Germany when "the pre-emptive" strike happened.

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Re: Russia's Winter War

#73

Post by Mark V » 21 Jul 2004, 23:19

Rarog wrote: So one is forced to admit that either Stalin and Co were genuine retards for planning to invade Germany or that the Red Army wasn't ready for war and Stalin and Co weren't going to conquer Europe. :-)
Hi,

The issue was USSR going to attack central Europe is not the topic here.

I just have tried to point out that somewhere, someone had f...ed seriously in training of Soviet troops - propably for an decades or so. And the climate during Winter War was not responsible for failures.

Ofcourse both sides suffered. It was harsh winter - but not out of this world, and not out of the experience of majority of Soviet people.


Regards, Mark V

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Re: Russia's Winter War

#74

Post by Rarog » 22 Jul 2004, 00:20

Mark V wrote:
Rarog wrote: So one is forced to admit that either Stalin and Co were genuine retards for planning to invade Germany or that the Red Army wasn't ready for war and Stalin and Co weren't going to conquer Europe. :-)
Hi,

The issue was USSR going to attack central Europe is not the topic here.
Well, it's exactly THE ISSUE. One can not plan to conquer the entire world after being beaten by a tiny country, unless that one is a complete moron :)

Well, Stalin wasn't a moron, neither was Mr. V. Suvorov with his Ice-Breaker.

regards

Mek
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#75

Post by Mek » 22 Jul 2004, 01:31

Mark V wrote: To my understanding also those were improvisations. Built in January, after it was apparent that with conventional means infantry could not cross the no-mans land.
Ah, I thought so. They had to come up with new ideas to try crossing
the dangerous areas. Not so sure if those sledges were much help.
I've also seen a picture of a small armour plate for Infantry, that
had a hole for riffle. I guess with that they could try crawl closer to
Finnish lines.

Regards,
-Pete

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