USAAF raids over Finland?

[Mikko H.]

The subject of 'Spitfires', 'Mustangs' and 'Lightnings' shot down by Finns in often debated at the Finnish Airforce Discussion Forum here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/46825

The bottom line is that there's no evidence that the Soviets ever used any of those lend-lease aircraft against Finland. 'Spitfires' and 'Mustangs' were misidentified Soviet aircraft (Yak-9, for example). But that Lighting claimed by Juutilainen is still an enigma. The favoured explanation seems to be that he shot down a German Fw-189 by accident.

There is plenty of evidence that Soviets used lend lease planes against finns..we even have An Airacobra and an a Kittyhawk captured and documented.

Only a complete idiot could claim anything like that. Or a troll...based in Moscow.

There is now a facebook group where correct, unsencored and valid info can be shared.

Wellcome to join it at: https://www.facebook.com/groups/3749921505083961/

Oh my.

Nobody has ever denied that Hurricanes, P-40s and P-39s were used against Finland. Nobody.

What is your agument here?

[Topspeed]

The subject of 'Spitfires', 'Mustangs' and 'Lightnings' shot down by Finns in often debated at the Finnish Airforce Discussion Forum here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/46825

The bottom line is that there's no evidence that the Soviets ever used any of those lend-lease aircraft against Finland. 'Spitfires' and 'Mustangs' were misidentified Soviet aircraft (Yak-9, for example). But that Lighting claimed by Juutilainen is still an enigma. The favoured explanation seems to be that he shot down a German Fw-189 by accident.

There is plenty of evidence that Soviets used lend lease planes against finns..we even have An Airacobra and an a Kittyhawk captured and documented.

Only a complete idiot could claim anything like that. Or a troll...based in Moscow.

There is now a facebook group where correct, unsencored and valid info can be shared.

Wellcome to join it at: https://www.facebook.com/groups/3749921505083961/

Oh my.

Nobody has ever denied that Hurricanes, P-40s and P-39s were used against Finland. Nobody.

What is your agument here?

If you are illiterate please ask someone to translate.

[Juha Tompuri]

If you are illiterate please ask someone to translate.

I strongly doubt that diagnosis.
Does this help you?

The subject of 'Spitfires', 'Mustangs' and 'Lightnings' shot down by Finns in often debated at the Finnish Airforce Discussion Forum here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/46825

The bottom line is that there's no evidence that the Soviets ever used any of those lend-lease aircraft against Finland.

Emphasis on mine.

Regards, Juha

[Topspeed]

If you are illiterate please ask someone to translate.

I strongly doubt that diagnosis.
Does this help you?

The subject of 'Spitfires', 'Mustangs' and 'Lightnings' shot down by Finns in often debated at the Finnish Airforce Discussion Forum here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/46825

The bottom line is that there's no evidence that the Soviets ever used any of those lend-lease aircraft against Finland.

Emphasis on mine.

Regards, Juha

There is no evidence....even though finns shot them down ? I think that is an evidence.

According to lend lease act URRS was not supposed to use them against finns. Politrucks possibly erased all possible evidence that may have been.

We only have one Airacobra and one tested Kittyhawk albeit there were thousands of them used against finns. This is much to the fact that areas were the fights happened are no longer parts of Finland but Russia.

Also many claims besides those confirmed of the Spitfires.

[Topspeed]

I noticed in an article on "Illu" Juutilanen that his kill list also had 2 Mustangs and one Lightning. On what occasion did he shoot them down? Did the USAAF conduct any raids over Finland?

Mustangs were of the MK 1 type...here Illu himself explaining:


MH: Another unusual plane on your victory list is the North American P-51 Mustang of which the Soviets received only 10. Could you describe your two encounters with the Mustangs?

Juutilainen: The only time we saw Mustangs was during the peak of the Soviet summer offensive of 1944. The Mustangs we met were older models, with Allison engines. On June 26 we had just been escorting Bristol Blenheim bombers and were returning over the front line when I saw a Mustang approaching me from my right side in a right turn with his belly toward me. I yanked the throttle to idle to let it slide past me. The Mustang pilot, however, recovered his turn and then saw me. He also pulled his throttle back, and I saw long flames backfiring from his exhaust pipes. He also kicked his rudder to slow down, but I was doing the same thing, and because I had started sooner than he, the Mustang slid right out in front of me. The Mustang pilot then went to full power and tried to shake me off his tail with a climbing turn. In so doing he made his last mistake and flew directly in front of my gunsight. I fired, and soon the Mustang was burning in the forest near Tammisuo. Two days later my section was returning from a reconnaissance mission and made the usual detour to have an aerial engagement before returning to base. Soon we saw an Il-2 formation coming toward us escorted by three Mustangs. One of them pulled left and the other two went into a dive. In a tight diving turn I went after the airplane that had broken left, firing short bursts to break the pilot's mental backbone. It worked, for he apparently got nervous and went into a dive. The pilot kicked his rudder, but much too rapidly, only causing the tail to waggle while his plane stayed rather comfortably in the middle of my sight. The target was at an altitude of about 150 feet when it caught fire and crashed into the tall pine trees

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/f ... ont.48986/

[Topspeed]

USSR had at least 2 P-38s and possibly more if there were forced land on their soil...or their held areas.

Probably 2 airplanes was study at Research Flying institute at war time - both of them was from Poltava airfields or anyone airfields around. Some time i see photos captured P-38 in Poland or Hungary or etc. Never hear that any P-38 was in servise at VVS - only rumors or wrong informations. Some photos available at the book on Russian - author Kotelnikov Vladimir - "Americans at Russia" - subname "Americans airplanes at Russia"


https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-avi ... lightnings

[Juha Tompuri]

There is no evidence....even though finns shot them down ? I think that is an evidence.

I think claims are not evidence.

According to lend lease act URRS was not supposed to use them against finns.

Please tell us more about that spesific act.

Regards, Juha

[Swing]

Full list of lend-lease aircrafts you can find here https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0 ... 0%B7%D1%83
It is in Russian but understandable, list is based on one historical study (PhD thesis) from 2002. I can give a link to an e-copy of the book upon request

[CF Geust]

I repeat that NO Mustangs, Lightnings nor Spitfires are known to have been used by the Baltic Fleet Air Force (VVS KBF) or by 13th Air Army 1944. In late 1944 (after the Finnish - Soviet fighting had ceased!) a number of Spitfire Mk IX fighters were delivered to 2nd Guards Fighter Air Defence Corps in Leningrad (2 GvIAK PVO). Some extracts of Gennadiy Petrov´s and my book Red Stars Vol.4 (Lend-Lease Aircraft in USSR, Apali 2002): Lightning in USSR (two known examples), Mustang in USSR (ten known Mustang Is) and known VVS units equipped with Spitfires:


Our book includes also several photos of the mentioned American aircraft.

[Topspeed]

Here is a picture of a ship launched Soviet Spitfire.

[Seppo Koivisto]

It is the cruiser Molotov (Black Sea), whose catapult was tested with the Spitfire and Be-4 flying boats.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_cruiser_Molotov

[Topspeed]

There is no evidence....even though finns shot them down ? I think that is an evidence.

I think claims are not evidence.

According to lend lease act URRS was not supposed to use them against finns.

Please tell us more about that spesific act.

Regards, Juha

Lend lease act was initiated by Franklin D. Roosevelt.....as he had promissed not to sell weapons to russians or the british troops.

[Topspeed]

196, Lightning.jpgI repeat that NO Mustangs, Lightnings nor Spitfires are known to have been used by the Baltic Fleet Air Force (VVS KBF) or by 13th Air Army 1944. In late 1944 (after the Finnish - Soviet fighting had ceased!) a number of Spitfire Mk IX fighters were delivered to 2nd Guards Fighter Air Defence Corps in Leningrad (2 GvIAK PVO). Some extracts of Gennadiy Petrov´s and my book Red Stars Vol.4 (Lend-Lease Aircraft in USSR, Apali 2002): Lightning in USSR (two known examples), Mustang in USSR (ten known Mustang Is) and known VVS units equipped with Spitfires:


Our book includes also several photos of the mentioned American aircraft.

You don't have the numbers ( amount ) of the Spitfires...how come that is so vague, but very precise on the Mustangs and P-38s ?

Furthermore IAP 767 was activated in 1952: http://www.ww2.dk/new/air%20force/regim ... 767iap.htm

[CF Geust]

The Spitfire text section in Red Stars Vol.4 is so long, so I did not include it in my post above, but here you will find the complete Spitfire text on pages 190-191, and photos of the testing of the Spitfire on board cruiser Molotov (of the Black Sea Fleet) in 1946 on page 33. RS 4 includes also extensive statistical tables of L-L aircraft delivery quantities and timetables.

If you have further questions concerning lend-lease aircraft in Soviet use, I recommend that you will study Red Stars Vol.4 in a good library.

[Topspeed]

Okay mr Geust...you seem to have done quite thorough investigation of the matter with mr. Petrov.


I even found the 767 IAP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Ai ... 1_May_1945

Too bad the 1330 + L-L Spitfires are not mentioned by numbers.