Hidden origins of the Winter War

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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Topspeed
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#256

Post by Topspeed » 14 Aug 2004, 08:50

John T wrote: Aavanma / Åland -
I have no solid view on that would be right or wrong for the population of Åland. But the compromise in 1921 was one of the WORST possible solutions available for both Sweden and Finland.

The 1921 agreement became the second biggest mistake in Swedish Foreign policy during the 20:th century. After not joining NATO.

But today it is quite nice to buy tax free at the ferries.
[Whimpy Swedes don't make their own Kosken..]

Eastern Karelia
- My bad translation of eastern part of the isthmus.


Cheers
/John T.
It is called Ahvenanmaa in finnish...and it means the country of the abborre ( the fish you know ! ) Possibly finnish fishermen got a lotsa aborre there !

Our ex armed force commander mentioned week ago that Finland should join NATO. Keeping up with weapon technology is very expensive for a small nation alone.

I enjoy Ahvenanmaa always, but it is like coming to sweden because people don't know how to speak finnish at all. Hard is also get a job in finland ( in communs at the seasides ) if not fluently swedish speaking...I have tried several times and always my swedish was the weak spot...I have no idea why I cannot learn to speak swedish...eventhough I speak fluently English and German.

later,

Juke T

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#257

Post by Hanski » 14 Aug 2004, 09:59

After 16 pages of obscure insinuations, cryptic puzzles, paranoid ideation, and denials of facts ad absurdum plus all the numerous responses to those, encouraging reasonable discussion is finally emerging on this thread.

Thanks to Juha for the excellent link on Alexei Miller's article on the Communist Past in Post-Communist Russia -- it is worth reading in its entirety and I believe it explains a lot of the behaviour of various writers seen even on this Forum.

In the present context, this passage of it is worth highlighting:

A particular case are the relations with the Baltic republics. The Congress of the People's Deputies of the Soviet Union that started in May 1989 brought the turning point in the official position on the Hitler-Stalin Pact. A commission was established under A. Jakovlev, secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU, to investigate the Pact. Although the secret protocols were yet to be "found", the 2nd Congress of Peoples Deputies passed a declaration admitting the existence of these secret protocols and condemning and denouncing them, on December 24 1989. (7) However, it was only on 29 October 1992, after the dissolution of the USSR, that the originals of the Secret protocols were finally made public in Moscow. Although recognising the illegal character of the secret protocols, the Russian Federation does not acknowledge the occupation of the Baltic countries by the Soviet Union. As indicated in a letter by the Russian deputy foreign minister, A. Avdejev, to the vice speaker of the State Duma, S. Baburin, from December 1997, "the disputes around the armed invasion of the Baltic territories and the following occupation of them do not have sufficient ground, since the administrative functions were carried out by national actors." Refusing to pronounce the very word "occupation" was most probably caused by the unregulated status of citizenship for those former Soviet citizens who moved to the Baltic republics after the second world war. Exact evaluation of these people as occupants is used as an argument to deny their right for citizenship by some politicians in Latvia and Estonia. This situation proves once again that reaching some mutually acceptable agreement about the evaluation of the past becomes the function of good relations between given countries at present and not vice versa.
Soon it will become 12 years since the secret protocols were made public in Moscow; by challenging their authenticity by his proofs of "forgery", Aleksei proves he has missed the train by more than a decade.


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#258

Post by Hanski » 14 Aug 2004, 10:50

The role of naval strategy gets some support in Professor Ohto Manninen's book Talvisodan salatut taustat -- Neuvostoliiton operatiiviset suunnitelmat 1939-1941 Suomen suunnalla (ISBN 951-90-5251-0, Porvoo 1994).

The summary in English is as follows:

Summary

THE SOVIET OPERATION PLANS FOR THE FINNISH THEATRE OF WAR
IN 1939-1941

In his article the author examines the operation plans made by the Red Army and the Red Navy for the Finnish theatre of war previous to and during the World War II. He also surveys how these plans reflect Stalin's intentions.

The threat scenario of the Soviet Union remained quite stable throughout the late 1930s. In every scenario the enemy was Germany, Poland and Finland in the west, and Japan in the east. For example the operation plan of 1939 was based on the assumption that the Soviet Union will be attacked simultaneously by Germany and Poland with the Italian Navy probably involved in the west, and Japan in the East. The involvement of the Italian Navy had been taken into account at least from autumn 1938 onward.

In regard to Finland, an important phase of planning is in connection with summer 1939. This is told unanimously by A. Vasilievsky as well as K. A. Meretskov in their memoirs. The Supreme Council of War didn't endorse the plan made by the Chief of Staff B. M. Shaposhnikov, but ordered the Commander of Leningrad Military District, Mr. Meretskov to draft a new version of the plan instead. This plan was adopted in July 1939. According to the sources available, no major changes were made to it before October 1939 although the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact had changed the general political settings. However, those political changes didn't have, by no means, much impact on the operation possibilities in the Finnish theatre of war.

At the beginning of the World War II, the idea of attacking the rear of the Finnish forces from the east, was given somewhat more strength. In the plan "In Order to Defeat the Finnish Army and Navy", signed by the Council of War of Leningrad Military District on October 29th, the mission was to defeat the Finnish defence: "after receiving the operation order, our troops penetrate from all directions simultaneously into the Finnish territory the objective being to isolate the grouping of the enemy and, in cooperation with the Airforce, to give it the decisive blow which leads to the defeat of the Finnish Army".

In the Karelian Isthmus this meant the capture of Hiitola, Imatra and Viipuri. Thereafter, in cooperation with the 8th Soviet Army attacking north of Lake Ladoga, the aim was to develop an operation in order to advance to Lahti, Hyvinkää, Helsinki, Mikkeli and Kuopio. The task of the 9th Soviet Army advancing still further north was to attack Kajaani, to continue to Kemijärvi-Kontiomäki-line and to capture Oulu. In Murmansk the task of the 14th Soviet Army was to capture Petsamo, to prevent possible delivery of personnel and weaponry from Norway as well as to repulse amphibious attacks on the coast of Murmansk.

The Red Army was prepared for quick breakthrough and was presupposed to wage unhesitant and flexible blitzkrieg, but after the sudden crossing of the border, the attack came to an almost complete standstill. From the very beginning of the war, the High Command of the Red Army took Leningrad Military District under its guardianship, K. Ye. Voroshilov, the People's Commissar of War, soon became suspicious of Meretskov having lost the general conception and being unwilling to ponder upon solutions of another type.

Thus, the Headquarters of the Northwestern Front was established at Leningrad at the beginning (7th) of January. The troops fighting at the Karelian Isthmus were subordinated to the new headquarters, and new plans were made. In February and March the Red Army was then able to push forward in the direction of the main railroad to the gates of Viipuri by using greater force and more concentrated efforts. The aim has probably been to proceed afterwards to Helsinki as the original plan presupposed. However, the operation had to be cut off because of the conclusion of peace.

In the early years of the World War II, the borders of the Soviet Union were gliding westwards, which changed the military situation decisively. Thus from autumn 1939 onward, the general strategic plan had to be revised all the while because of the continuously changing situation. Even in the Baltic basin, the strategic circumstances had completely changed. It is worth of noticing that Finland was again regarded as a potential enemy in the war to come.

The fundamental idea of the operation plan of Leningrad Military District was to prevent the enemy from advancing upon the Soviet territory, to gain time to regrouping the troops, for counter attack and to carry the war into the enemy's territory in two weeks time. In the Finnish theatre of war, the bulk of the Red Army troops were deployed at the Karelian Isthmus - not least for the sake of Leningrad's security. Other directions of interest were Salla, where a railway crossing the border was built on the demand of Soviet Union, as well as the Aaland Islands and Hanko in the northern parts of the Baltic Sea. In summer and autumn 1940, particular attack plans were drafted to be used in all these directions.

The Finnish Continuation War broke out in connection with the German Operation Barbarossa. According to the operation plan, the centres of gravity of the Red Army groupings were established around Viipuri, where a mechanized army corps was deployed, and in Kantalahti. However, the intensity of the German invasion soon engaged the resources of Leningrad Military District to its southwestern outskirts. This meant that the intension of the Red Army, to execute certain limited offensives also in the Finnish theatre of war in a situation like this, didn't ever materialize.
As we know, a naval base in Finland was also included in the peace terms of the Continuation War. Instead of Hanko (located strategically regarding the access to the Gulf of Finland), it was the lease for 50 years of Porkkala, located to the west from Helsinki.

Besides controlling the Gulf of Finland, the role of Porkkala may have been more like holding a knife on Finland's throat, since the base was within artillery range from the centre of the capital city. However, as a result of progress in weapons technology and political developments, Porkkala lease district was returned to Finland in January 1956.

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#259

Post by Marcus » 14 Aug 2004, 11:07

Thanks to Hanski for trying to raise the level of discussion in this thread which frankly have been very low from both the starter of this thread and several of those who disagree with him.

/Marcus

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#260

Post by Harri » 14 Aug 2004, 18:46

Sorry, Marcus. Actually I think many share my opinion that it has not always been easy to "select" between crying or (perhaps more) laughing when reading the various messages of this thread because there really are not many threads in AHF of which purpose after 18 pages still remains (almost) unclear. :roll:

I agree Hanski made a "man's job" for bringing this thread closer to the topic again.

----

But where is the starter of this thread? :|

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#261

Post by Marcus » 14 Aug 2004, 20:34

A nonsense post by Topspeed was removed, depending on how this thread is handled it will either be locked or all nonsense and offtopic posts will be deleted.

/Marcus

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#262

Post by Juha Tompuri » 14 Aug 2004, 22:37

Thanks Hanski :)

I had decided (too) not to post at this thread, but the reveals by John, that Aleksei uses war game scenarios as his sources of information, made me to comment.
About the secret protocols Ohto Manninen has written at his (exellent, as usual) book "Stalinin kiusa, Himmlerin Täi" (Tease of Stalin, Louse of Himmler) about following:
-The German originals were probably destroyed at allied bombings during 1945
-Allied found at Thüringen a large collection of German foreign office document copies (made by Ribbentrop after the first Berlin bombings), including the MRP-one
-The Soviet original was at possession of Molotov until December 1952. Then they were transported to Party Central Comitee general section, 6th division, where all the most secret documents were stored. They were classified to the highest security rating to the so called "sealed envelopes". The documents were at envelope number 34, and their maps at number 35.
-Andrei Gromyko (vice- and Foreign Secretary of USSR 1947-1985) both knew about and denied the protocols.
1975 and 1979 the Soviet archives have registered copies made for him)
-The Soviet foreign diplomacy documents containing series of books: "Dokumenty vneshnej politiki SSSR" part XXI (year 1938 documents) was published 1977.
The publishing was then stopped by Gromyko.
The XXII part came out not until 1992.
- Gorbatshov ordered 1987 a comission (F. Kovalev, A. Yakovlev, A. Dobrynin and V. Medvedev) to investigate the matter of the secret protocols.
- Soviet congress named a new comission (A. Yakovlev, V. Falin, Y. Afanasyev, and E. Savisaar) June 1987 to value the Molotov-Ribentrop pact as political and legal points of view.
-24th Dec-89 the Soviet congress came to the conclusion, mentioned earlier.
-The protocols were published in USSR/Russia at "Polpredy soobstsayut..." 1990 by Soviet Foreing affairs
and
at "God Krizisa", 1990.
- 29th Oct-92 R. Pihoia, D. Volkoganov and A. Yakovlev revealed the original protocols and maps at a press conference.

Regards, Juha

P.S. a link for those interested in what happened 23/24th Aug-39 at Moscow (after the signing the protocols): http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/ns053.htm

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#263

Post by Juha Tompuri » 14 Aug 2004, 23:00

Harri wrote:BTW Aleksei22, is that number your age or what?
...I don´t believe that...neither do I believe that it could be a result of a test from a:
Aleksei wrote:Historical and Political IQ-Meter
Regards, Juha

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#264

Post by Tero » 14 Aug 2004, 23:53

By Juha Tompuri
P.S. a link for those interested in what happened 23/24th Aug-39 at Moscow (after the signing the protocols): http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/ns053.htm
If you do a search using the keyword finland you will come across some interesting correspondence as to the role of England and how the Germans and Soviets assesed the English role in the breaking down of the negotiations.

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#265

Post by Tero » 15 Aug 2004, 00:04

Some of Alekseis claims going down in flames:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/ns108.htm
In connection with telegraphic instruction No. 322. (1)

The Finnish Minister, who will call today at the Foreign Office, is to receive the following information:

Our relationship to the three Baltic States rests on the well-known non-aggression pacts; our relationship to Denmark likewise. Norway and Sweden have declined non-aggression pacts with us, since they do not feel endangered by us and since they have hitherto not concluded any non-aggression pacts at all. Finland, to be sure, has such a pact with Russia, but declined our offer nevertheless. We regretted this circumstance, but were and are of the opinion that our traditionally good and friendly relations with Finland do not require any special political agreements.

With this absence of problems in the German-Finnish relations it is very easy to understand why in his utterances of October 6th-concerned for the greater part with our neighbors-the Führer did not mention Finland at all, just as he did not mention many other greater and smaller states. From this it only follows that between us there are no points of difference. In Moscow, where in the negotiations of the Reich Foreign Minister, German-Russian relations were discussed in broad political outline and where a treaty of friendship came into being, the well-known definitive line of demarcation was fixed. West of this line lie the German interests, east of it we have registered no interests. We are therefore not informed as to what demands Russia intends to make on Finland. We presume, however, that these demands would not be too far-reaching. For this reason alone a German stand on the question becomes superfluous. But after the developments cited above we would hardly be in a position, in any case, to intervene in the Russian-Finnish conversations.

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#266

Post by Mek » 15 Aug 2004, 03:07

Dear all,

I just came across an old but interesting small article in Kansa Taisteli magazine N:o 12 1980.

The Article is called "Did Niukkanen know about Hitlers and Stalins secret Agreement?".

Paavo Susitaival (colonel-lieutnant, and parliament member before winter war) says in the article that a German reporter friend of his (Völkischer Beobachters reporter F.W.Borgman) had broken his vow of silence and disclosed him by drawing a dotted line on a map through Finland and Poland and explain that this side belongs to Germany and this to USSR.

Susitaival then passed this information through Antti Kukkonen to Defence Minister Juho Niukkanen and through that route to the goverment. Susitaival himself seems to be doubtful whetever Niukkanen witheld the information to himself. This conversation happened before the army's additional maneuvers (YH). Susitaival also says that he gives credit to Finnish goverment for having the courage to call the field army for extra maneuvers, and gives thanks to Borgman, because now the Goverment was aware that maybe it was not worth negotiating on local goals, because the target was the whole country.

Curiously, Niukkanen opposed the peace treaty till the end, and demanded that Finland asks for help from the Western powers. Niukkanen also did not agree to the idea to partially demobilize the troops before the winter war actually began, he did not seem optimistic about the situation. Does this mean that he knew that it was the whole country as USSR's goal? or was there other motives behind his attitude? Additional question would be, and if Finnish goverment knew, and Niukkanen knew, was the source for it this German newspaper man F.W. Borgman?

I think Eljas Erkko at least had stated that he thought USSR's goal was the borders of 1914, but he did not believe that USSR would attack.

I must say personally, I think one of the wisest choices Finnish goverment made was to call the field army into service to additional maneuvers. Can't think of what would've happened if we had been completely ill-prepared.

Regards,
-Pete

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#267

Post by Hanski » 15 Aug 2004, 05:31

Thank you all for your encouragement!

I think this link is worth reading as a good summary on the Winter War.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?f ... ID+fi0027)

It is all well-known history for most Finns, and it also tells about the origins of the Winter War (albeit none of any "hidden" kind).

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#268

Post by Tero » 15 Aug 2004, 06:11

By Hanski
Thank you all for your encouragement!
You're wellcome ! As Marcus said, it was about time to get this de-railed debate back on track.
It is all well-known history for most Finns, and it also tells about the origins of the Winter War (albeit none of any "hidden" kind).
Of all the sources I have read on the subject over the years I have never seen any hint of indication the Winter War was actually brought on by English-jewish-capitalist conspiracy. All indications have been pointing towards the Soviet expansionism and (legitimate) concerns for the safety of Leningrad and the operational freedom of the Baltic Fleet in the face of expanding war in Europe.

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#269

Post by Hanski » 15 Aug 2004, 07:36

Yes indeed, the Soviet legitimate concerns for the safety of Leningrad… In the classic novel The Unknown Soldier by Väinö Linna on the Continuation War, one of the soldier characters states with sarcasm to his mate, who reminds about territorial violation as they cross the old border: “Yes, we indeed are the villains when crossing borders… others merely mind their security, when they move the borders!”

The Finns had their equally legitimate concerns for their own security, but history has taught them painful lessons what happens when two parties, unequal in size, have conflicting needs.

How real was then the threat against the USSR from Germany through Finnish territory?

Two excerpts from the Avalon Project website of Yale Law School (the emphasis is mine):

1.
The State Secretary in the German Foreign Office (Weizsäcker) to German Missions Abroad, Dec 2 1939: “The foreign policy pursued by the Finnish Government has in the last few years stressed the idea of neutrality. It has relied on the Scandinavian states and has treated German-Russian opposition as axiomatic. As a result Finland has avoided any rapprochement with Germany and has even rejected the conclusion of a non-aggression pact with Germany as compromising, even though Finland has a non-aggression pact with Russia. Also in the League of Nations, Finland, in spite of the debt of gratitude, which she owed to Germany for the latter's help in 1918, has never come out for German interests. Foreign Minister Holsti is typical of this point of view and particularly hostile to Germany. Extensive elements in Finland emphasize their economic and ideological orientation in the direction of democratic England. Correspondingly the attitude of most of the organs of the press is out-spokenly unfriendly to us. The platonic sympathy of England has confirmed Finland in her previous attitude and has done the country no good.”
2.
The State Secretary in the German Foreign Office (Weizsäcker) to the German Ambassador in the Soviet Union (Schulenburg), BERLIN, December 6, 1939:

“Supplement to Instruction Poll VI 2651, Item II.

Supplementing telegraphic instruction of December 2, the following additional instruction was issued today to all the important missions:

In conversations regarding the Finnish-Russian conflict, you are requested to make use of the following considerations:

Only a few weeks ago Finland was about to come to an understanding with Russia, which might have been achieved by a prudent Finnish policy. An appeal to the League of Nations by the Finnish Government is the least suitable way of solving the crisis.

There is no doubt that British influence on the Finnish Government-partly operating through Scandinavian capitals-induced the Finnish Government to reject Russian proposals and thereby brought on the present conflict. England's guilt in the Russo-Finnish conflict should be especially emphasized.

Germany is not involved in these events. In conversations, sympathy is to be expressed for the Russian point of view. Please refrain from expressing any sympathy for the Finnish position. End of telegraphic instruction. WEIZSÄCKER”
For a third one, let me quote Ms Pirkko Kanervo, Master of Philosophy, from her paper Italy and the Finnish Winter War

(For the whole article, see http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 04&start=0 )

3.
Italian relations towards Germany and the Soviet Union during the Winter War

When the Winter War broke out, Italy at once sided with the West and condemned the Soviet attack. Thousands turned out as volunteers. Students demonstrated their sympathy in Rome in front of the Finnish Embassy, while there were hostile demonstrations in front of the Soviet Embassy. The new Soviet Ambassador who had just arrived at Rome had to return to Moscow to no avail, unable to leave his credentials. Italy also called her own Ambassador home from Moscow.

Ciano’s first message to the Finnish Ambassador Mr Eero Järnefelt was that Italy was always against bolshevism, although she could not place herself in the lead of an anti-Soviet crusade. Already during the first days of the war Finland passed a request to Italy to allow pilots offering themselves for volunteers to leave with their aircraft to the aid of Finland. According to Ciano, Finland’s geographic position and the German attitude being unclear made the situation difficult. However he said that in principle Italy was prepared to help Finland just like she had been prepared to help Spain.

Clarity soon emerged on the German attitude. A week had not passed after the outbreak of the Winter War, as the leader of the German Labour Front arrived at Rome, Dr Robert Ley, whose task seems to have been to put the Italians in order in respect to the Winter War. Ley announced that the future of Finland did not interest the Third Reich. Finland’s attitude towards Germany had not been friendly, she had never related well with Germany, and neither had she ever been grateful for the great help she received while the independence of the country was being created. Ley reported the Führer having said that neither should Italy have reasons for sympathy towards the Nordic Countries and reminded about the sanctions of the League of Nations against Italy during the Abessinian War. These were the arguments that also Hitler and Ribbentrop later offered to the Italians. The importance of Ley’s visit is illustrated by the fact that when he returned from Rome there was Hitler’s adjutant meeting him at the Berlin station, taking him straight away to the Reich Chancery to report on the outcome of his visit. The Italians, however, did not heed Ley’s advice but continued supporting Finland. Between the Axis countries emerged a serious conflict also on the attitude towards the Soviet Union.”
So, in light of the above, does it sound likely that democratic Finland had offered herself to Germany as a staging area for an offensive against the USSR in the 1940’s?

Hardly, provided that Stalin had never himself attacked Finland in the Winter War. In guarding her own interests, Finland would have without hesitation turned down such German proposals if they had ever been made, and like they later proved in the Lapland War, Finns were quite capable of fighting the Germans as well if needed.

Stalin was either paranoid in his obsession of the Western capitalists plotting to invade the Soviet Union – at least through Finnish territory – or he knew himself that he only used the security concerns as a pretext for expansionism to take Finland back into the Empire.

Of course he also did demonstrate a degree of political realism in understanding how quickly 180-degree turns can take place in foreign policy, like Operation Barbarossa later was to prove. But Finland's decision to join it in 1941 does not justify "preventing" it in 1939 -- the cause of the Continuation War was precisely the Winter War, and nothing else.

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#270

Post by Hanski » 15 Aug 2004, 09:01

My thanks to Globalization41 for his late breaking war bulletins coverage of the Winter War, as well as the most interesting links he has provided on the subject.

Regarding the origins of the Winter War, this is a most interesting one:

http://harikumar.brinkster.net/Communis ... WAR90.html

It is fascinating in the sense that all the meticulously gathered details appear at least by my first reading to be factually true as such. However, they have been selectively chosen, undoubtedly omitting most contrary data, and they are interpreted in a hilariously funny communist way, leading to conclusions that give Finland all the blame, i.e. the victim is proved as the perpetrator.

One of the hilarious factors is how the communist paranoia holds it axiomatic that Western capitalist Great Powers are indeed keenly planning to launch an attack on Leningrad via Finland, and this fixed wild idea, projected externally from the writers' own aggressive impulses, becomes so overwhelming they seemingly start to believe it like it had already been proven! Yet, no evidence whatsoever can be presented to support the allegations of British, French, German, or Jew preparations in Finland for such an attack -- see, how deceitful the cunning capitalists are! The vivid imagination then starts playing tricks, annexation of territory becomes justified in defence of this sacred cause, and it is all definitely the Finns' fault!

Ironically, the Soviet attack then forced Finland to actively seek help from Britain, France, and where ever it was available, so the Soviet fear of the Western powers became a self fulfilling prophecy in a way.

Of course, in hindsight the 1939 Finnish government could have seen clearer just how delusional the Soviet giant was, and the concessions recommended by Mannerheim for example might have gained more time without unreasonable risks (but who knows, whether it would have led into a summer war in 1940 and Finland's collapse?). Whether giving in would have satisfied Stalin in the long run, or whether more demands would have followed, is impossible to know and entirely open to speculations. In the Baltic, nevertheless, merely military bases were not enough, Stalin wanted the entire countries.

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