Hidden origins of the Winter War

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Hanski
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#271

Post by Hanski » 15 Aug 2004, 12:21

To continue about the link presented in the previous message:

Let us examine some of the communist “evidence”:
At the 6th Congress of the Communist International in 1928, the Finnish delegate Yrjo Sirola emphasises the danger of Finland being used as a base by one or other great power for an attack on the Soviet Union:

"Comrades, little Finland is of considerable importance in the war preparations of the imperialists against the Soviet Union. Its frontier is only 40 kilometres distant from Leningrad. .. . ..
Finland's orientation upon England is well known. Considerable sums of British capital are invested in Finland. England has taken a direct part in the reorganisation of Finland's army and navy. . . .
A vicious (anti-Soviet -- Ed.) press campaign goes on uninterruptedly".

(Y.F.Sirola: Speech in Discussion on the War Danger, 6th Congress of Communist International, in: 'International Press Correspondence', Volume 8, No. 61 (11 September 1928); p. 1,081).

Anything surprising in that a Finnish communist uses his imagination trying to impress his comrades? Investments from England are hardly military preparations yet. The bit of “England’s direct part in the reorganisation of Finland's army and navy” were true to the extent that the young Republic requested advice from various Swedish, British, French, and German military experts in building the national defence, at times heeding their advice, at others rejecting it, and sent Finnish officers to receive training in foreign military academies. Beyond that, it is BS. The “press campaign” was simply a lie: in reality the press was applying normal Western journalistic principles in reporting about the USSR. Of course, the Civil War a decade earlier had an effect on the editors’ views, as expressed by each independent newspaper of a free press (with the exception of no communist press, as the party was then illegal).
A similar threatening picture was drawn by the Soviet Marxist-Leninist Andrey Zhdanov at the 8th Congress of Soviets on 29 November 1936:

"If in some of these little countries -- for example, Finland - feelings of hostility to the USSR are being kindled by larger and more adventurist countries, and preparations are being made to make their territory available for aggressive action by fascist powers, in the long run it is these little countries which alone will be the losers."

(A. Zhdanov: Speech at 8th Congress of Soviets, in: J. Degras (Ed.):
'Soviet Documents on Foreign Policy', Volume 3; London; 1953; p. 226).
Yes, imagination can play tricks in the mind of a hard core communist in a closed society, with Finnish communists and Soviet agents as the only source to feed information. The insinuated “preparations” unfortunately are never specifically described.
Fred Singleton, in his 'A Short History of Finland', points out that:

"The Soviet leaders shared the fears which all Russian leaders have felt since the time of Peter the Great -- namely, that a hostile power might use Finland as a base for an attack upon Leningrad. In the 18th century the potential enemy was Sweden. In the 1930s the threat came from Germany".
(F. Singleton: 'A Short History of Finland'; Cambridge; 1989; p. 128).
Yes, fears can be very real, though their origin can be between one’s ears.


The Soviet-Finnish Negotiations (1939)

Stalin explained to Paasikivi that the motive behind the Soviet proposals was purely defensive:
"It is not the fault of either of us that geographical circumstances are as they are. We must be able to bar entrance to the Gulf of Finland. . . . .
Once a hostile fleet is in the Gulf, the Gulf can no longer be defended.
You ask what power might attack us. England or Germany. We are on good terms with Germany now, but everything in this world may change.”
Undisputable realism, no doubt.
The essence of the Soviet demands was aptly summarised by Lundin:

"The Soviet leaders were determined, above all, to do two things.
They wished to push the frontier on the Karelian Isthmus back a substantial distance from its closest approach to Leningrad. . . .
They also wished to establish a naval base on the Finnish coast at the mouth of the Gulf, opposite the newly acquired bases in Estonia, so that any hostile shipping coming up the Gulf of Finland would have to run the gauntlet of a cross fire".
Has its sound military logic, doesn’t it? But why does the writer never mention, what happened to Estonia with the newly acquired bases in 1940?
It was at this point time that Stalin made a considerable concession, suggesting that if the Finns were adamant that Hanko was not negotiable, perhaps some other small island nearby could be leased:

"When we said once more that Hanko could not be discussed, to our great surprise Stalin proposed an alternative -- the group of islands to the east of it".
(V. Tanner: op. cit.; p. 67).
"Towards the end of the negotiations, Stalin asked whether, instead of Hanko, the Finns would cede three small islands nearby".
(C. L. Lundin: op. cit.; p. 53).
"Stabbing his finger at a spot on the map of Southern Finland, he asked:
'Do you need these islands?'
Little red circles had been drawn around three small islands . . . just east of the Hanko Peninsula. He was willing to settle for these if it really was impossible for Finland to part with Hanko itself".
And so on, and so on…
At least every true communist must believe Stalin was willing to settle for these – and of course true believers must acknowledge that there were very good reasons for (exceptionally) not settling for bases only in the Baltic countries.
It is clear that the Soviet government 's proposals were neither a threat to Finland's independence nor based on territorial expansion, but were designed solely to increase the Soviet Union's defensive capacity.
It is equally clear that the occupation of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania were also no threats to these respective countries, but only served the same noble purpose. Unfortunately, the later fates of civilians and soldiers alike in these countries are not covered in this brilliant testimony.
The Finnish government’s rejection of the Soviet proposals and its categorical rejection of the compromises proposed by Moscow demonstrated that it was being backed by one or more foreign powers to cling to a boundary which represented a serious threat to the security of the Soviet Union.
Again, these “one or more foreign powers” are not identified, neither is the nature of their “backing” explained.
The Finnish political commentator Martti Turola, has admitted:
"It simply cannot be overlooked that Finland pursued a dangerously aggressive, menacing foreign policy prior to the war".
(N. Turtola: 'Guilty or Innocent? Approaches to the "'inter War in Research and Memoirs', in: 'Yearbook of Finnish Foreign Policy: 1990'; Helsinki; 1990; p. 45).
The quote from this political commentator, whose name is first misspelled, fails to explain the aggression and menace that 3.8 million people represent to a neighbouring 50-fold population, and for some reason, the numerous commentators with contrary opinions are not cited here at all.

An impressive, accurate account on the Finnish mobilization follows – to give the illusion of credibility.
On 28 November, Molotov handed a further Note to the Finnish Minister stating that, in view of the conduct of the Finnish government, the Soviet government considered the non-aggression pact between the two countries signed in 1932 to be null and void:

"In concentrating a large number of regular troops in the immediate vicinity of Leningrad and subjecting that important vital centre of the USSR to a direct threat, the Finnish Government have committed a hostile act against the USSR which is incompatible with the Treaty of Non-Aggression concluded between the two States. The refusal of the Finnish Government, after the criminal artillery fire directed at the Soviet troops , to withdraw their troops a distance of 20-25 km., shows that the Finnish Government desire to persist in their hostile attitude towards the USSR. . . . In consequence, the Government of the USSR are obliged to state that they consider themselves, as from today, released from the obligations ensuing from the Treaty of Non-Aggression concluded between the USSR and Finland".
The criminal artillery fire only came from Soviet artillery pieces, which is omitted from the commie version of history writing. There was no Finnish artillery within reach of Mainila village, where this incident was staged.

On the following day, 29 November, Molotov handed a further Note to Yrjo-Koskinen complaining that Finnish attacks on Soviet troops were continuing and effectively breaking off diplomatic relations with Finland:

"Attacks on Soviet troops by Finnish troops are known to be continuing, not only on the Karelian Isthmus, but also at other parts of the frontier between the USSR and Finland. The Government of the USSR can no longer tolerate such a situation. As a result of the situation thus created, . . . the Government of the USSR . . . find themselves compelled to recall their political and economic representatives from Finland".
No evidence of such continuing attacks exists elsewhere than in Soviet propaganda.

Now, here comes a tidbit:
The above version of the facts -- that the Finnish armed forces were the instigators of the frontier incidents which had occurred -- was confirmed by the British Prime Minister Winston Churchill in February 1945:

"The Finnish war began in the following way. . . . Some Russian frontier guards were shot at by the Finns and killed. . . . The frontier guard detachment complained to the Red Army troops. . . . Moscow was asked for instructions. These contained the order to return the fire". (W. S. Churchill: 'The Second World War', Volume 6: 'Triumph and Tragedy'; London; 1954;.
And how the hell did Sir Winston come to know that, if this quote is accurate? Was he an eyewitness, or perhaps he heard the story…. from whom?? The Finns certainly must have sent undisciplined idiots to the spot, just to cause something like this…!
More than twenty-five years after Stalin's death, most Soviet sources agree that the war was initiated by Finnish forces.
For example, the 'Great Soviet Encyclopaedia', published in the 1980s, asserts:
Surprise, surprise! What an impressive group of witnesses! And they still keep doing it in 2004…
Marxist-Leninists maintain that some wars are just, while some are unjust:
"The Bolsheviks held that there are two kinds of war:
a) Just wars, wars that are not wars of conquest but wars of liberation, waged to defend people from foreign attack and from attempts to enslave them, or to liberate people from capitalist slavery, or, lastly, to liberate colonies and dependent countries from the yoke of imperialism, and;
b) Unjust wars, wars of conquest, waged to conquer and enslave foreign countries and foreign nations."
('History of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union'; Moscow; 1939.
Indeed, this is the very reason, the hidden origin of the Winter War! Indeed, it was an example of an a) Just war, an unselfish attempt at liberating the whole of Finland from the slavery of Finns themselves, to replace it with a far better slavery. Anything else, even truth, is entirely irrelevant when such noble aims are pursued by the chosen ones, and the true believers in commie propaganda will persistently keep repeating this enigmatic and hidden secret, beyond all conventional wisdom, till the end of the world.

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#272

Post by Steady » 15 Aug 2004, 13:52

I have a question. What special legal right did the Soviet Union have to seek defense lines outside its legal borders? Every other country in the world must prepare to defend itself INSIDE its borders. Can defending a country outside its borders be seen as defence at all?

Whenever any attacker is asked for a reason for its aggression, they declare they were just "defending" something, be that freedom, political system, oil fields or anything.

But an attack outside ones borders is an ATTACK, not DEFENCE!

I am sure every russian sees the German blitzkrieg as an asssault, not a defensive action! Now, from finnish perspective, how was the Soviet assault any different from any other attack by any other country against any other ever in history? The Soviets seem to have had a million excuses to attack Finland, but Finland had just a single reason to defend! Let me ask, which side had the more convincing reason to fight?


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#273

Post by Marcus » 15 Aug 2004, 17:59

An insulting post from KalaVelka was removed.

/Marcus

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#274

Post by Marcus » 15 Aug 2004, 18:01

Off topic posts from Aleksei22 were removed, the topic is "Hidden origins of the Winter War", not anything else.

/Marcus

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Harri
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#275

Post by Harri » 15 Aug 2004, 18:57

About the piece of information on the secret protocol (of Molotov - Ribbentrop pact):

I have red that the information Finns received from Germans (about the secret protocol) identical information was given also from Sweden. So there were at least two sources for this piece of information: German Embassy in Finland and Swedes. Without doubt there could have been even more sources. That means Finns were extremely well informed on Soviet intentions.

I suppose now that the starter of this thread states that all this information was false given on purpose by the Germans. Fortunately (unfortunately?:roll: ) the contents of the secret protocol is so well known today that there is no doubt that it was really signed and it was real. I have an impression that Germans didn't have very long distance plans in 1939 concerning the fate of Finland and they were ready to "sacrifice" Finland. If we look back into history now Germans' doings look like a brillian master plan for driving Finland into the arms of Germany. But like I said I have never seen any evidence which would support this theory.

It is clear that Germans' policy towards Finland started changing during the Winter War. Many Germans supported Finland rather openly, including Hermann Göring, who adviced Finns to sign peace agreement "without thinking of its costs". That, I think, is the only hint that Germans perhaps had some interests in Finland.

To me Molotov - Ribbentrop pact was "Germans' revenge" because Finland (and other neutral countries around the Baltic Sea) had refused to sign any agreements (non-aggression pact) with Germany in 1938. Germans had then told Finnish negotiators that "you must then bear the consequences". The excerpts Hanski showed support this.

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#276

Post by KalaVelka » 15 Aug 2004, 19:12

Marcus Wendel wrote:An insulting post from KalaVelka was removed.

/Marcus
Ok, I apologize my choice of words, but I am still waiting an answer from Aleksei.

I have a question. What special legal right did the Soviet Union have to seek defense lines outside its legal borders? Every other country in the world must prepare to defend itself INSIDE its borders. Can defending a country outside its borders be seen as defence at all?

Whenever any attacker is asked for a reason for its aggression, they declare they were just "defending" something, be that freedom, political system, oil fields or anything.

But an attack outside ones borders is an ATTACK, not DEFENCE!

I am sure every russian sees the German blitzkrieg as an asssault, not a defensive action! Now, from finnish perspective, how was the Soviet assault any different from any other attack by any other country against any other ever in history? The Soviets seem to have had a million excuses to attack Finland, but Finland had just a single reason to defend! Let me ask, which side had the more convincing reason to fight?
Kasper

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#277

Post by John T » 15 Aug 2004, 20:10

Hanski wrote: Ironically, the Soviet attack then forced Finland to actively seek help from Britain, France, and where ever it was available, so the Soviet fear of the Western powers became a self fulfilling prophecy in a way.
One even more Ironic posibility is that due to the Soviet occupation of 1/2 Poland and the baltic states we are now able to discuss these issues as free men in 2004. Rather as subjected to Nazi rule. You Finns whould possibly been on the winning side while Sweden must at least have succumbered into the German Wirtshaftsraum.

So in that respect Stalins paranoid views of the world paid off.
And there are plenty of evidence of French desire to get at the Soviets rather than fighting Germany. To name one book: Neakivi, "the Appeal that was never made"

Dear Finns, hope you can see this comment as a comment on alternate history rather than any kind of statement of its desirablilty.
WW2, Nazism and Stalinism all where bad things and I have no interest in making further comparisons of "what is most evil".
Hanski wrote: Of course, in hindsight the 1939 Finnish government could have seen clearer just how delusional the Soviet giant was, and the concessions recommended by Mannerheim for example might have gained more time without unreasonable risks (but who knows, whether it would have led into a summer war in 1940 and Finland's collapse?). Whether giving in would have satisfied Stalin in the long run, or whether more demands would have followed, is impossible to know and entirely open to speculations. In the Baltic, nevertheless, merely military bases were not enough, Stalin wanted the entire countries.
My favorite Scenario is Finland makes the Mannerheim consessions and goes inte an union with Sweden.
Not that Sweden and FInland would be strong enough to withstand teh Soviets in the long run but It would screw up the Moltov-Ribbentrop deal.


Cheers
/John T.

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#278

Post by Tiwaz » 15 Aug 2004, 21:06

John, Finland was trying to create cooperation with other nordic nations to create defensive alliance. It was not Finland where such scenario was refused.

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#279

Post by Hanski » 15 Aug 2004, 21:24

John T wrote: One even more Ironic posibility is that due to the Soviet occupation of 1/2 Poland and the baltic states we are now able to discuss these issues as free men in 2004. Rather as subjected to Nazi rule. You Finns whould possibly been on the winning side while Sweden must at least have succumbed into the German Wirtshaftsraum.

...

Dear Finns, hope you can see this comment as a comment on alternate history rather than any kind of statement of its desirablilty.
WW2, Nazism and Stalinism all where bad things and I have no interest in making further comparisons of "what is most evil".
Nothing inappropriate in presenting this quite an excellent question -- would you like to open another thread for us to discuss it under the "What if" -section, or is there already a suitable existing one?

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#280

Post by John T » 15 Aug 2004, 23:19

Tiwaz wrote:John, Finland was trying to create cooperation with other nordic nations to create defensive alliance. It was not Finland where such scenario was refused.
Dear Tiwaz
Both Sweden and Finland blamed the other for this never came into being.
There's two for tango. :wink:

On the other hand, Nordic co-operation did work mostly without much ado.
For example, large part of the explosives used by Finland during the winter war where produced by Bofors Nobelkrut in Sweden from Norwegian nitric acid. Commercial deals with political blessing.

Cheers
/John T.

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#281

Post by Topspeed » 16 Aug 2004, 06:58

Hanski wrote:To continue about the link presented in the previous message:

Let us examine some of the communist “evidence”:

The above version of the facts -- that the Finnish armed forces were the instigators of the frontier incidents which had occurred -- was confirmed by the British Prime Minister Winston Churchill in February 1945:

"The Finnish war began in the following way. . . . Some Russian frontier guards were shot at by the Finns and killed. . . . The frontier guard detachment complained to the Red Army troops. . . . Moscow was asked for instructions. These contained the order to return the fire". (W. S. Churchill: 'The Second World War', Volume 6: 'Triumph and Tragedy'; London; 1954;.

.
So Hanski,

Are you saying Churhill was a die hard communist ? Or he just wanted to find a reason for declearing war on Finland ?

Juke T

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#282

Post by Mek » 16 Aug 2004, 07:23

Topspeed wrote: Are you saying Churhill was a die hard communist ? Or he just wanted to find a reason for declearing war on Finland ?
I was wondering about Sir Winston Churchill's writing too, I began to think is the part written about beginning of the Winter War somehow politically motivated or just relying solely on Russian sources. I don't think Churchill was die hard communist :D but.. there could've been other kind of political motivations. USSR being a major power in Europe, and Finland being this tiny country on the wrong side in the end. Who do you believe.. the victorious or the other? ;)

Regards,
-Pete

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#283

Post by Hanski » 16 Aug 2004, 07:36

Topspeed wrote: So Hanski,

Are you saying Churhill was a die hard communist ? Or he just wanted to find a reason for declearing war on Finland ?

Juke T
The Commie Propagandist wrote: The above version of the facts -- that the Finnish armed forces were the instigators of the frontier incidents which had occurred -- was confirmed by the British Prime Minister Winston Churchill in February 1945
What I am saying, Sir Winston was not in his right mind if the quotation is correct; it proves he bought the Soviet propaganda at its face value in February 1945. A man in his position must have been accurately informed on the actual course of events soon after they took place in 1939, but what on earth was fed on him, to make him later "confirm" Soviet propaganda? Like I wrote before, anyone aware of Finland's position at the brink of war with the USSR in November 1939 should know that utmost care was taken very responsibly among the Finnish troops by strict military orders, precisely to avoid any provocations that could be used as pretexts by the opposite side. Can anybody claim Finnish soldiers having been undisciplined in 1939?

Churchill's reasons for declaring war at Finland on 6 Dec 1941 have been discussed on another thread, and they certainly have to do with the need to satisfy Stalin, the crucially important Ally. But I truly cannot understand, why he has let that sort of crap to be printed under his name still in 1954, even if in February 1945 his judgement may have been impaired during the last joint Allied efforts to finish the III Reich.

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#284

Post by Topspeed » 16 Aug 2004, 09:08

Well Mek and Hanski,

Winston Churchill was a professional soldier and then a statesman. He was also a heavy drinker. Story sounds better if you can find a logical reason to aid a maniac to win a war for you.

I think the saying " Enemy of my enemy is my friend ". That is the good proof for W.C. and saying: " Right or wrong my country ! "

Let's talk about the real start of the war; the famous Mainila shots, where Soviet artillery shot their own side with their own artillery claiming that finns has started the war by artillery fire from Mainila !

Juke

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#285

Post by Hanski » 16 Aug 2004, 11:16

Topspeed wrote: Winston Churchill was a professional soldier and then a statesman. He was also a heavy drinker. Story sounds better if you can find a logical reason to aid a maniac to win a war for you.

I think the saying " Enemy of my enemy is my friend ". That is the good proof for W.C. and saying: " Right or wrong my country ! "
I am afraid we cannot dismiss the allegation just so lightly. If something is published under the title W. S. Churchill: 'The Second World War', Volume 6: 'Triumph and Tragedy'; London; 1954;, that means it is part of the testimony of a great statesman with all his authority for the world history, written in several volumes, to remain as his monumental viewpoint for all the later generations.

In preparing such an authoritative series of volumes, nothing is printed without careful advance scrutiny and cross-checking by a large team of various experts, so ill-considered accidental mistakes do not appear, whether originally written in draft versions drunk or sober -- every word has been given serious thought prior to publication, that is for sure.

This is the only source referred to by that anonymous propagandist that makes me seriously wonder what has happened in the process of writing -- all the remaining quoted testimonies by fanatic communists contain self-evidently what is expected, as by their definition marxists never do anything wrong, as they pursue a just cause.

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