Hidden origins of the Winter War

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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Aleksei22
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Post by Aleksei22 » 23 Aug 2004 14:39

Tero wrote:
Standard SOP.



With that phrasing you managed to wreck Alekseis reasoning. With no reference to Finland the negotiations are a simple stand-alone afair totally disconnected from the entire Winter War. :lol:




Hello, Tero




. wrote:
Software translated

On the Soviet data, during Winter war Finland was supplied 376
planes, on ones Finnish - 225.

Sweden has given to Finland whole wing"Aviaflotilia-19" with Swedish
pilots. It consists from 17 aircrafts: 12 fighters Gloucester J8
"Gladiator" Mk.l, 4 bombers Howker "Heart" e-4C and one transport
plane. On January, 11, 1940 this flotilla has arrived to Finland.
The Finnish command has assign it designation LeR-19. She acted
the north of the country, in Laplandia where was based on
frozen lake Kemi.

In January, 1940 in airshelfs LeR-4 the first English
fighters "Gladiator" began to arrive. Besides with that Swedish pilots
used "Gladiators" since January, 11. 1940 the in airgroup
LLv-19.

Besides Swedes delivered three fighters "Jak-falk" J-6A and two
fighters Bristol "Bulldog" Mk. II, three scouts Fokker CV-a,
two scouts Koolhoven FK-52, one transport plane Douglas DC-2.


On the Soviet data, during Winter war the Finnland has
lost 362 machines. Finns assert, that 67 machines was lost
from which only 21 has been brought down in air fights .
Serious damages have received 69 Finnish planes.
304 pilots were lost, 90 were missing and 105 is wounded.

As we see, figures are seriously inconsistent, here is obvious that
both partiespreffered to "distort cards" . For example, if we trust
Finns - the only one (1) brought down plane assosiated with 6 pilots
killed (KIA) and MIA. In fact typical crew-size of the majority of the
Finnish planes was 1-2 pilot(s), the only "Blenheim"crew consists from
3 pilots. Did anybody has not jumped out with a parachute from
damaged aircraft????


Due to deliveries from the West, the Finnish Air Forces at the
last day of W war ( despite of losses ) totaled 196 warplanes,
including 112 ready-for-use, that is it is more, than on
November, 30, 1939 (115 ).



http://militera.lib.ru/h/shirokorad1/9_10.html

. wrote:
Software translated

From other countries considered with understanding to our needs
- it is necessary to name
first of all Sweden which has supply us 80000 rifles, 500 units of the
automatic weapon, 85 anti-tank guns, 112 field howitzers,
104 antiaircraft guns, 500000 rifle cartridges, 300000 artillery shells,
25 planes, and as gasoline and the various equipment.
( Mannerheim Memoirs see pic. )

http://forum.axishistory.com/files/finl ... ment-1.jpg




Do you mean that none of this weapons wasnt reswapped
within Sweden-Germany agreement ????

Do you mean that swedes supplied Finland with wasted second-hand
spare-parts from own mil. arsenal ????


Thank you.
Last edited by Aleksei22 on 23 Aug 2004 15:20, edited 1 time in total.

Aleksei22
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Post by Aleksei22 » 23 Aug 2004 15:16

Hello, all

Some important remarks

____________________________________

Parliament wasnt informed on the purpose of Shtain's visit.
We need only regret this fact only.
....


Government of Finland did not consider certain very
favorable circumstances and by that has lost an opening
opportunity. To protect Finland sole from an
approaching storm was two natural ways: - with one we needed
political and military co-operation with Sweden, and with
another side - such rapproachement with USSR which would reduce
its suspiciousness. With the begining of year (1939) in connection with
the general situation aggravation this suspiciousness
became the even greater when Germany started war of nerves With Poland
and has grasped Czechoslovakia and Memel.

...



When on May, 4, 1939 Molotov has replaced Litvinov in office and
Kremlin has started confidential contacts to Germany -
opportunities of Finland have slipped out of our hands.



Those circumstance, that Finland in May, 1939 has rejected,
(similarly to Sweden and Norway ) the nonagression pact
offered by Germany, - in Russian's view was not a
high-grade guarantee of our neutrality.

Mannerheim Memoirs, p.230-231

_____________________________________
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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 23 Aug 2004 17:34

A post by Hanski was split off into a new thread entitled "Russian Civil War - Summer of 1919".

/Marcus

Tero
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Post by Tero » 23 Aug 2004 19:50

By Aleksei22
Software translated

On the Soviet data, during Winter war Finland was supplied 376
planes, on ones Finnish - 225.
Sweden has given to Finland whole wing"Aviaflotilia-19" with Swedish
pilots. It consists from 17 aircrafts: 12 fighters Gloucester J8
"Gladiator" Mk.l, 4 bombers Howker "Heart" e-4C and one transport
plane. On January, 11, 1940 this flotilla has arrived to Finland.
The Finnish command has assign it designation LeR-19. She acted
the north of the country, in Laplandia where was based on
frozen lake Kemi.
The real history of the Swedish force

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~fta/f19-1.htm
In January, 1940 in airshelfs LeR-4 the first English
fighters "Gladiator" began to arrive. Besides with that Swedish pilots
used "Gladiators" since January, 11. 1940 the in airgroup
LLv-19.
This is consistent wit Finnish data. But the fact Swedish pilots used Gladiators is a non-sequitur as they were not counted in the Finnish inventory.
Besides Swedes delivered three fighters "Jak-falk" J-6A and two
fighters Bristol "Bulldog" Mk. II, three scouts Fokker CV-a,
two scouts Koolhoven FK-52, one transport plane Douglas DC-2.
I'll have to check that.
On the Soviet data, during Winter war the Finnland has
lost 362 machines. Finns assert, that 67 machines was lost
from which only 21 has been brought down in air fights .
Serious damages have received 69 Finnish planes.
304 pilots were lost, 90 were missing and 105 is wounded.

As we see, figures are seriously inconsistent, here is obvious that
both partiespreffered to "distort cards" . For example, if we trust
Finns - the only one (1) brought down plane assosiated with 6 pilots
killed (KIA) and MIA. In fact typical crew-size of the majority of the
Finnish planes was 1-2 pilot(s), the only "Blenheim"crew consists from
3 pilots. Did anybody has not jumped out with a parachute from
damaged aircraft????
I'll have to dig up the casualty data. The stated KIA/WIA/MIA figures seem highly exaggerated.
Due to deliveries from the West, the Finnish Air Forces at the
last day of W war ( despite of losses ) totaled 196 warplanes,
including 112 ready-for-use, that is it is more, than on
November, 30, 1939 (115 ).
This would seem consistent with Finnish data. Except most of the planes arrived after the cease fire.
Do you mean that none of this weapons wasnt reswapped
within Sweden-Germany agreement ????
Since F19 planes returned to Sweden after the war you claim additional whopping 11 planes being "supplied" by Sweden. All of which are obsolete models and of doubtful or no combat value.

What did the Swedish-German agreement entail, exactly ?
Do you mean that swedes supplied Finland with wasted second-hand
spare-parts from own mil. arsenal ????
Everybody else SOLD us obsolete second hand gear to clear their arsenal.

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 23 Aug 2004 20:12

Aleksei,
Marcus Wendel wrote:Aleksei22,

Several questions have been put to you about the claims you have made in this thread that you have not responded to, please do so before posting anything else in this thread.

/Marcus

You still haven't answered to the questions, about your claims, what were the German planes Sweden got as compensation from Germany during the Winter War and what pact USSR offered to Finland 17th Sept-39.

/ Juha

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 23 Aug 2004 20:26

Hello, I'm not Tero, this is Harri.

(Quotes from Aleksei22's message.)
. wrote:On the Soviet data, during Winter war Finland was supplied 376 planes, on ones Finnish - 225.
I don't quite understand from where these figures have been found but Finnish State Aircraft Factory (VL) didn't produce any new aircraft during the Winter War. It only repaired damaged planes.

Just prior to Winter War Finland received the following planes:
3 pcs - Asja J 6A/B Jaktfalken (donated from Sweden)
2 pcs - Bristol Bulldog IIA (donated from Sweden)
= 5 pcs

During Winter War Finland received the following planes:
35 pcs - FIAT G.50 (bought from Italy)
30 pcs - Gloster Gladiator II (10 donated and 20 bought from Britain)
30 pcs - Morane-Saulnier M.S. 406 (donated from France)
24 pcs - Bristol Blenheim I and IV (bought from Britain)
12 pcs - Hawker Hurricane I (bought from Britain)
3 pcs - Fokker C.VE (donated from Sweden)
2 pcs - Koolhoven F.K.52 (privately financed in Sweden, donated)
1 pcs - Douglas DC-2 (privately financed in Sweden, donated)
= 137 pcs

Received mainly after Winter War:
32 pcs - Gloster Gauntlet II (donated by South African Federation)
44 pcs - Brewster B-239 (bought from USA)
17 pcs - Westland Lysander I (bought from Britain)
6 pcs - Caudron-Renault C.R.714 (donated from France)
1 pcs - Fokker F.VIII (financed in Sweden, donated)
= 100

TOTAL = 242 aircraft (if I have counted correctly)

A few individual planes are missing from this list but nothing significant. Not all planes although arrived in Finland (they were either damaged or missed en route to Finland).

Soviet Air Force supplied Finnish Air Force (FAF) kindly with repairable or almost intact planes. During Winter War FAF received one Tupolev DM-3M bomber and five Polikarpov I-15bis fighters.
. wrote:Sweden has given to Finland whole wing"Aviaflotilia-19" with Swedish pilots. It consists from 17 aircrafts: 12 fighters Gloucester J8
"Gladiator" Mk.l, 4 bombers Howker "Heart" e-4C and one transport
plane. On January, 11, 1940 this flotilla has arrived to Finland.
The Finnish command has assign it designation LeR-19. She acted
the north of the country, in Laplandia where was based on
frozen lake Kemi.
The main base of Swedish F 19 was at Kemi (Veitsiluoto) on the ice of the sea, not lake.

Swedes had a total of 12 Gloster Gladiator I (J 8A) fighters, five Hawker Hart (B 4) light bomber / reconnaisance planes (fifth was received later), and three transport or liaison planes.
. wrote:In January, 1940 in airshelfs LeR-4 the first English
fighters "Gladiator" began to arrive. Besides with that Swedish pilots
used "Gladiators" since January, 11. 1940 the in airgroup
LLv-19.
LeR 4 (Flying Regiment 4) was a bomber regiment. I didn't have fighters, only Bristol Blenheim bombers during Winter War. (Neither during Continuation War it had fighters.)
. wrote:Besides Swedes delivered three fighters "Jak-falk" J-6A and two fighters Bristol "Bulldog" Mk. II, three scouts Fokker CV-a,
two scouts Koolhoven FK-52, one transport plane Douglas DC-2.
Jaktfalkens (or "Jaktfalks"?) and Bulldogs were obsolete planes intended and used for training fighter pilots. Their designation was "fighter trainer" in Finland. The other mentioned planes were privately financed in Sweden. Koolhoven's were the two prototypes of that model bought from Holland (using the privately collected money).

Donated Fokker C.VEs recon planes were used in combat missions in LLv.16 (Flying Squadron 16) although they were of older model than Finnish Fokker C.VEs.
. wrote:On the Soviet data, during Winter war the Finnland has
lost 362 machines. Finns assert, that 67 machines was lost
from which only 21 has been brought down in air fights .
Serious damages have received 69 Finnish planes.
304 pilots were lost, 90 were missing and 105 is wounded.
Official confirmed Finnish records:
During Winter War Finnish Air Force lost 45 planes in combat and 16 planes in accidents (= 61). A total of 35 planes were badly damaged, six of them in aerial combat. FAF lost (killed or missed in action) a total of 54 (combat) + 21 (accidents) = 75 pilots (incl. all crew members).

Sources (for example):
Kalevi Keskinen and Kari Stenman:
Ilmavoimat talvisodassa - The Finnish Air Force in the Winter War, 1989
Veli Pernaa: Ilmavoimien historiasarja III: Karjalan lennoston historia 1918 - 1980
(FAF History Series III: The History of the Karelian Air Command 1918 -1980), 1997
. wrote:As we see, figures are seriously inconsistent, here is obvious that both partiespreffered to "distort cards" . For example, if we trust
Finns - the only one (1) brought down plane assosiated with 6 pilots
killed (KIA) and MIA. In fact typical crew-size of the majority of the
Finnish planes was 1-2 pilot(s), the only "Blenheim"crew consists from
3 pilots. Did anybody has not jumped out with a parachute from
damaged aircraft????
Sure. I don't know of which case this is telling about? Must I show you the whole list of lost planes and their crews?
. wrote:Due to deliveries from the West, the Finnish Air Forces at the
last day of W war ( despite of losses ) totaled 196 warplanes,
including 112 ready-for-use, that is it is more, than on
November, 30, 1939 (115 ).
The idea is basically correct. On 30.11.1939 FAF had 115 combat planes in flying order and on 15.3.1940 134 (including Swedes of F 19).

Source:
Atso Haapanen:
Suomen ilmavoimien hävittäjähankinnat 1918 - 1945
(Fighter Deliveries of Finnish Air Force 1918 - 1945), 2002
I'd forget this source. :roll:
. wrote:From other countries considered with understanding to our needs - it is necessary to name
first of all Sweden which has supply us 80000 rifles, 500 units of the
automatic weapon, 85 anti-tank guns, 112 field howitzers,
104 antiaircraft guns, 500000 rifle cartridges, 300000 artillery shells,
25 planes, and as gasoline and the various equipment.
( Mannerheim Memoirs see pic. )
8O Correct I think?
Aleksei22 wrote:Do you mean that none of this weapons wasnt reswapped within Sweden-Germany agreement ????
We all expect that you'd prove that, because this "reswapping" was your claim.
Aleksei22 wrote:Do you mean that swedes supplied Finland with wasted second-hand spare-parts from own mil. arsenal ????
Exactly - and not just that: also brand-new excellent stuff straight from their factories.

-----

Still no proves of the hidden origin of Winter War... we all are waiting.
Last edited by Harri on 23 Aug 2004 21:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Steady » 23 Aug 2004 20:56

About losses among Finnish Air Force personnel, and every other unit, for that matter: after the war the Finnish magazine Suomen Kuvalehti published a book titled "Vapautemme hinta" ("Price of our freedom"). That book lists with photograph, name, age, hometown and place of death, every single Finnish Winter War casualty. That, in my opinion, represents the highest possible level of openness regarding war casualties. There is absolutely no way that any Finnish casualty numbers were fake or there would already have been thousands of people asking why their sons were not included in that book like other fallen heroes of our country.

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 23 Aug 2004 21:17

Two off topic posts were removed, please keep this thread on the "Hidden origins of the Winter War", thanks.

/Marcus

John T
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Post by John T » 23 Aug 2004 21:23

Tero wrote:By John T
Yes, I wrote it a bit unclear.
I edited my original post, to make it clearer.

I was talking about German deliveries to Sweden as compensation for aircrafts sent to Finland.
Your position is still unclear: were they or were they not compensation for the planes Sweden alledgedly supplied Finns with ?
This is from my first, edited post:
John T wrote: I believe that the only German aircrafts that actually was ordered by Sweden during the Winter war and delivered within the time frame was a handfull of Fi-156 "Storch" liason aircrafts.
I think that some He-114 maritime patrolaircrafts where also ordered during the winter war but the delivery to Sweden where delayed until Soviet submarines attacked German shipping in Swedish territorial waters.

A possible combat Aircraft(Fighters or Stukas) deal with Sweden was something that the Germans used as a carrot in negotiations for most of the war, but never materialsied into a firm contract.
Cheers
/John T.

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Post by John T » 23 Aug 2004 21:48

Tero wrote:
John T wrote:
Aleksei wrote:
On December, 10, 1939 Hitler has resolved deliveries of the weapon to Sweden which
should compensate to it the arms transferred to Finland that has been made out by
the agreement from January, 27 1940
I would have phrased it a bit differently,
Early december Hitler set the framework of negotiations, and the skeleton agreement where finalised January 27 1940.

With that phrasing you managed to wreck Alekseis reasoning. With no reference to Finland the negotiations are a simple stand-alone afair totally disconnected from the entire Winter War. :lol:
I disagree with your conclusion.
Reread Hanskis exelent quote at
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=54304
It contains some interesting highlights of German domestic politics (Göring Vs Ribbentrop). And if you read about German- Finnish relations between summer 1940 and up to the continuation war you'll find Mr. Veltjens in action once again as Görings messenger.

So to you, if Finland is not written into the agreement, Finland had nothing to do with it?

Cheers
/John T.

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 23 Aug 2004 22:16

Off-topic, but take a look at the map titled "1941" Aleksei22 showed us? Are the railways (or roads or both?) a bit odd there?

And what the text "Gen.Lnt.(Ret.) Ditmar" means there?

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Post by John T » 23 Aug 2004 22:53

Aleksei22, you got it wrong regarding aircrafts but it is correct with respect to other munitions.
Could you please provide me with info on what sources you have
(or is it Mannerheims memoirs?)

This is a fact that most Swedes don't like to talk about,
but I like to avoid to let nationalistic sentiments distort my view on facts, even when those facts are less flattering.

Regarding Aircrafts USA where the place where Sweden placed most orders during the winter war, not Germany.

Aleksei22 wrote:
. wrote: Software translated

From other countries considered with understanding to our needs
- it is necessary to name
first of all Sweden which has supply us 80000 rifles, 500 units of the
automatic weapon, 85 anti-tank guns, 112 field howitzers,
104 antiaircraft guns, 500000 rifle cartridges, 300000 artillery shells,
25 planes, and as gasoline and the various equipment.
( Mannerheim Memoirs see pic. )

http://forum.axishistory.com/files/finl ... ment-1.jpg
Do you mean that none of this weapons wasnt reswapped
within Sweden-Germany agreement ????

Do you mean that swedes supplied Finland with wasted second-hand
spare-parts from own mil. arsenal ????

Thank you.
Not all of it, but most of what was sent directly from the Swedish armed forces where declared as surplus. Remember that the Swedish defence budget where twice the size (in USD)of Finlands in the period 1936-38.

And the 500 000 rifle cartridges, where actually 20 000 000 directly to Finnish forces plus aprox the same quantity to be used by Swedish volunteers.

With few exceptions, all modern guns delivered directly from Swedish armed forces to Finland where replaced by Germany.

The 12 105mm K/34 guns where brand new and replaced with German 105mm guns, as where 37mm and 40mm guns too.

A special note on the 40'ies are that a large number where property of Great Britain completed at Bofors but forbidden by Swedish neutrality laws to be sent to GB.
GB did accept that Sweden requisitioned the guns IF they where sent to Finland. I am not yet completely clear if the Dutch did the same, but I have reasons to belive so.
GB could of course not stop the Swedes from doing whatever they thought appropriate with the guns but the compromise to send them to Finland spared Sweden negative goodwill during wartrade agreements.

BTW - Finnish sources insist naming the 8 75mm fieldguns m/40A to be Argentinian, actually four where intended for Argentina and the other four where requisitioned from Thailand. Identical in configuration when delivered from Bofors, so no difference seen when sent to Finland.


And since Finland then sent a fair amount of guns back to Sweden after the winter war, you can say that Sweden made some profit on guns, at least for the time period September 1939 - July 1940. Ammunition was
another matter, since AFAIK almost nothing was returned and the German delivered few rounds per gun for the replacements.


Cheers
/John T.

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Post by Aleksei22 » 24 Aug 2004 10:29

Hello, Tom
. wrote: Aleksei22, you got it wrong regarding aircrafts but it is correct with respect to other munitions.

As a rule Mannerheim prefered to keep silance in the memoirs about such "ticklish"
Details of cooperation with Germany ( in 1939 and 1918 too ). Nevertheless it is possible to find
very specified "traces" and "hints" spreaded "between lines" of his Memoirs.


The direct references to the specified cooperation Finland-Germany you can find in the
Meltjuhov's book and some references herein -


Meltjuhov - Missed Stalin's Chance Moscow, Veche, 2002, p.128
Documents of External Policy( USSR Forign Office), Moscow 1992, v.22, pt2, p. 387
Kan A.S. Winter war v.1 p. 63-64, 248-269
Semirjaga M.I - Secret of Stalin's Diplomacy - 1939-1941, Moscow 1992, p.178-182.





Well known Double standard practice is - habitual deal in business (in particular in sphere of trade of arms)
and ( especially ) in sphere of policy. Germany was not exception of this universal rule neither in 1939 nor
in 1917-1919 . It is during 1917-1919 that Germany armed Finland with the Rusian trophy weapon.

As to deliveries of arms to Finland in 1939 ( via Sweden) - it was in origin (presumably)
Czechoslovak's. You should know that in 1937-1938 wery good relation established
between Intelligence of USSR and Czechoslovakia.

Thank you.

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Post by Tero » 24 Aug 2004 10:55

By John T
I disagree with your conclusion.
Reread Hanskis exelent quote at
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=54304
It contains some interesting highlights of German domestic politics (Göring Vs Ribbentrop). And if you read about German- Finnish relations between summer 1940 and up to the continuation war you'll find Mr. Veltjens in action once again as Görings messenger.
And how does that relate to the topic at hand ? Which, if you need reminding, is hidden origins of the Winter War. What would have happened if there was no Winter War is speculation.
So to you, if Finland is not written into the agreement, Finland had nothing to do with it?
That's about the size of it. You have not proven a paper trail which would indicate the weapons acquisitions made by Sweden when war was being waged at her doorstep were covert weapons aid to Finland by Germany.

Mainly because it was simple arming of the Swedish army to gear up in case she would wind up in a shooting match, not because it was a covert German domino game to help out Finland.

The idea as such is feasible. Only there is no evidence to support that theory. So far we have had the British (with the French), the Eternal Jew and the international capitalists doing their work against USSR. Now you wish to add Germany to that esteemed list. If what is being fantasized here would have been remotely true Finland would have had all the artillery ammunition and all the arms she would have required. The sad truth is nobody would part, even for good money, with state of the art arms before Winter War and after Winter War the best and most reliable source for modern gear for the Finnish army was the Red Army and nobody else.

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Post by Tero » 24 Aug 2004 11:26

By John T
you got it wrong regarding aircrafts but it is correct with respect to other munitions.
Only if it can be proven the Swedish expressly co-operated with the Germans in an understanding that any and all munitions given (sold ?) to the Finns would be compensated by the Germans. And that the Finns were aware of this connection or had expressly agreed with the Germans directly about such arrangements (not that it would have propably mattered much at the time, but still).
Regarding Aircrafts USA where the place where Sweden placed most orders during the winter war, not Germany.
Were these planes a compensation for the planes sent to Finland ? ;)
With few exceptions, all modern guns delivered directly from Swedish armed forces to Finland where replaced by Germany.
Replaced by or replaced from ? Big difference.
The 12 105mm K/34 guns where brand new and replaced with German 105mm guns, as where 37mm and 40mm guns too.
Paulaharjus Field Artillery of the Republic of Finland 1918-1995 states 12 105K34 were bought from Sweden, 4 of which made it to Finland during Winter War, the full complement shows in the roster as of June 6th 1940.
A special note on the 40'ies are that a large number where property of Great Britain completed at Bofors but forbidden by Swedish neutrality laws to be sent to GB.
GB did accept that Sweden requisitioned the guns IF they where sent to Finland. I am not yet completely clear if the Dutch did the same, but I have reasons to belive so.
GB could of course not stop the Swedes from doing whatever they thought appropriate with the guns but the compromise to send them to Finland spared Sweden negative goodwill during wartrade agreements.
Which models and makes does this refer to and when were these sent (sold ?) to Finland ?
BTW - Finnish sources insist naming the 8 75mm fieldguns m/40A to be Argentinian, actually four where intended for Argentina and the other four where requisitioned from Thailand. Identical in configuration when delivered from Bofors, so no difference seen when sent to Finland.
So ? What we designated them is our own business. :)

Paulaharju does state all 8 were of a batch of 12 bound for Argentina which after ellaborate negotiations allowed 8 of them to be sold to Finland.
And since Finland then sent a fair amount of guns back to Sweden after the winter war, you can say that Sweden made some profit on guns, at least for the time period September 1939 - July 1940.
Which guns are you referring to ? The ones which the Swedish volunteers operated ?

And don't forget the captured Red Army gear sent your way... ;)
Ammunition was another matter, since AFAIK almost nothing was returned
If it was bought and paid for there was no reason to send it back.
and the German delivered few rounds per gun for the replacements.
It is the Swedes own fault if they bought stuff but no ammo for it. :)

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