Hidden origins of the Winter War

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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Topspeed
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Post by Topspeed » 27 Aug 2004 08:21

Mark V wrote:
PSS. Just opening an tin of Norwegian salmon....
Could have been finnish salmon, if we still had a harbour at the arctic sea !


Aleksei22,

The amount of several of those planes was 1 or 2. Think about the maintenance of such a fleet !

rgrds,

Juke T

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Post by Tiwaz » 27 Aug 2004 08:25

Thank you Harri for that information about Stuka production.

Quite interesting actually.

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Post by Topspeed » 27 Aug 2004 08:27

Aleksei22 wrote: So to say treaty of 1932 ( which was prolongated up to 1944 ) - MUST be REARRENGED .... by means of bilateral NEGOTIATIONS between USSR and Finland. That it was done by USSR, you are known with Finnish "constructive" reactions.
Aleksei22,

Stalin neverminded the 1932 finn-soviet treaty when attacking Finland 1939. Soviets attacked Finland...very constructive isn't it !?

Juke T

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Post by Topspeed » 27 Aug 2004 08:31

Tiwaz wrote:Thank you Harri for that information about Stuka production.

Quite interesting actually.
There were also Junkers factories in Moscow in the 20ties.

JT

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Post by Aleksei22 » 27 Aug 2004 15:31

Hello, John
John T wrote: Yes, the post ww1 borders where not always quiet, but
I think you should enlight our dear fellow members of
the board that you are refering to Territorial waters
and Spitzbergen. As a sidenote, Norway and Denmark had
some conficts regarding Eastern Greenland too. So the
Norwegians did not just bully poor ol' mother Russia.



You are right, but in part only.
John, it depends on what UNITS you want to measure
losses and political consiquences.

. wrote:
Software Translated

In 1920-1924 in the territorial waters of USSR was broken
so called " the Seal war " which meant
- brutal intrusion of hundreds Norwegian fishing ships
into internal waters of USSR - from Murmansk up
to Arkhangelsk !!!! The Soviet government sent a lot of
notes of official protest, but - it havent Navies to expell
Norwegian fishing ships.

The spring of 1921 had been issued
the order for confiscation of courts-infringers,
their tackles and seals and criminal prosecution
of persons-infringers was imposed.

Norway in his official answer has sent a note of protest in which
demanded !!!!! to change sea borders of the Soviet republic.

The exchange of notes proceeded and the next year (1922 )when
Norwegian fishing-court came in water area of the White sea in
such quantity, that russian fisher could not leave
on a craft. In 1923 for protection of fishing courts
Norway sent a battleship that has been marked unprecedented WAR-case:
- forign warship in territorial waters without declaration of war!!!


Only in 1924 the contract about the Norwegian concession
with USSR on conducting a craft on the
state quotas of the USSR has been signed. The Soviet
administration has admitted in the White sea only 90
Norwegian courts which conducted fishing strictly according
to the quotas allocated by him.
Renewal of "Seal-war" has been
marked in 1928. Norway has threatened the USSR with the
letter of help for military support to Great Britain navy fleet in
case of USSR wanted to prosecute of Norway fisher-ships.

Infringements of territorial waters proceeded till 1936
when last Norwegian concession has been liquidated.

Now differentiation of a continental shelf in Barents
sea (very perspective area on stocks of oil and gas) between
the Russian Federation and Norway is
not settled.
Corresponding negotiations are conducted since
1970.

Norway insists on a principle equal borders distance
from island possession of two countries and suggests
to accept under this "jurisdiction" more than 150 thousand
square kilometers of shelf area......



John, i can post you a photo of only one epizode
of well-known herring-war between UK and
Iceland if you would post me official "Norway or Denmark"
demands (notes ) to rearrange sea borders of those states
in 1924-1938. + War-Ship Demonstrations too ...


John T wrote:

(You did forget to mention Swedish- Finnish- -Dutch- German submarine developments.)

Thank you. Its very important detail too espesially within Germany
arms racing. Re. Germany "solved problems of Leaque of Nations" while
all Scandinavia refused to use its paragraph 16 trade-restriction
provisions.


John T wrote: I have not seen any thing that supports that he in peace time
intended offensive operations against USSR.

It was very HARD ( to USSR government ) to make a detailed
tracing of his "intentions" in 1937-1939, but current situation
(arms-racing ) and his "business"
in 1918-1920 ( Order of the Day, Letter of War, restitution demands, etc )
- were well-known. Informed ( USSR government ) must made
conclusions. Thats was done ( negotiations ). Finn' total
ignorance responce - known too. "Windows of opportunities" was closed.
Unique alternative to it - known ( to both sides ) too .....




John T wrote:

When the democratic FInnish Cabinet descided taht they would
not back down in 39, Manerheim had to adjust.

How we can coinside German-Finnish-Barbarossa-Alliance with Great-Finland ???

Winter-war ??? or Order of the Day ( 15 of march 1918 ) ????



Aleksei22 wrote:
John wrote:

Please elaborate on how the extremly profitable War business started teh winter war.

Cheers
/John T.


to be cont. a bit later/

Thank you.
I'll wait in suspense
John T.

let see below some GENERAL remarks and refferences

__________________________
. wrote:


1 -


_______________________________________________________

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/U ... con-6.html

The Government's increased demands for war could be met from
three sources:

1.— from an increase in the national output, ( long time-range )


2.- from capital resources

or

3.- from a diversion of the output normally devoted
to personal consumption. ( guns OR butter - (c) Goering )



_______________________________________________________




..............

. wrote:

2 -
__________________________________________________
http://www.elginhistory.com/eaah/eaah-ch08.htm

4. The Local Arsenal
The Depression ended with the increased expenditures
for national defense that followed the outbreak of war

in Europe. Late in April 1940, the Elgin National Watch
Company received a War Department contract for developing
equipment and a production plan for mechanical time fuses.
__________________________________________




and very Fine essay

. wrote:

The Lion and the Unicorn
by George Orwell (1941)



http://www.netcharles.com/orwell/essays/col-lion2.htm

As soon as one considers any problem of this war—and it does
not matter whether it is the widest aspect of strategy or
the tiniest detail of home organisation—one sees that the
necessary moves cannot be made while the social structure
of England remains what it is. Inevitably, because of their
position and upbringing, the ruling class are fighting for
their own privileges, which cannot possibly be reconciled with
the public interest. It is a mistake to imagine that war aims,
strategy, propaganda and industrial organisation exist in
watertight compartments. All are interconnected. Every
strategic plan, every tactical method, even every weapon
will bear the stamp of the social system that produced
it. The British ruling class are fighting against Hitler,
whom they have always regarded and whom some of them still
regard as their protector against Bolshevism. That does not
mean that they will deliberately sell out; but it does mean
that at every decisive moment they are likely to falter,
pull their punches, do the wrong thing.


Until the Churchill Government called some sort of halt to
the process, they have done the wrong thing with an unerring
instinct ever since 1931. They helped Franco to overthrow the
Spanish Government, although anyone not an imbecile could have
told them that a Fascist Spain would be hostile to England.
They fed Italy with war materials all through the winter of
1939-40, although it was obvious to the whole world that the
Italians were going to attack us in the spring. For the sake
of a few hundred thousand dividend-drawers they are turning
India from an ally into an enemy. Moreover, so long as the
moneyed classes remain in control, we cannot develop any but
a defensive strategy. Every victory means a change in the
status quo. How can we drive the Italians out of Abyssinia
without rousing echoes among the coloured peoples of our own
Empire? How can we even smash Hitler without the risk of
bringing the German Socialists and Communists into power?
The left-wingers who wail that “this is a capitalist war”
and that “British Imperialism” is fighting for loot have
got their heads screwed on backwards. The last thing the
British moneyed class wish for is to acquire fresh territory.
It would simply be an embarrassment. Their war aim
(both unattainable and unmentionable) is simply to hang on
to what they have got.


It is only by revolution that the native genius of the
English people can be set free. Revolution does not mean
red flags and street fighting,
it means a fundamental shift of power.
Whether it happens with or without bloodshed is largely
an accident of time and place......





BTW. Remember who was elected as president of Finland after 1939
WW ???? Did he was a banker?? Did he was PRO-GERMAN???


I am sure you know how many words Mannerheim spend to describe
a disastrous social and economy situation in Finland after 13 of march
1940.

To solve those problems - ONE's needs a money. Big Money !

Who OWNed them ?????? in 1940 ?????

Where they were ( money ) gained ????

Did USSR wanted to "consume" Finland ( after WW ) ???

Why USSR "returned" Petsamo to Finlang Again ????


Thank you.

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Post by Topspeed » 27 Aug 2004 17:11

Aleksei22 wrote:

It was very HARD ( to USSR government ) to make a detailed
tracing of his "intentions" in 1937-1939, but current situation
(arms-racing ) and his "business"
in 1918-1920 ( Order of the Day, Letter of War, restitution demands, etc )
- were well-known.

-------------------------------

Winter-war ??? or Order of the Day ( 15 of march 1918 ) ????

-------------------------------


Did USSR wanted to "consume" Finland ( after WW ) ???

Why USSR "returned" Petsamo to Finlang Again ????
Aleksei22,

Can you provide us March 15th Order of the Day and proof that Stalin had read it !

When did Soviets return us Petsamo ?

regards,

Juke T

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Post by Earldor » 27 Aug 2004 18:05

Aleksei22 wrote:
Thank you. Its very important detail too espesially within Germany
arms racing. Re. Germany "solved problems of Leaque of Nations" while
all Scandinavia refused to use its paragraph 16 trade-restriction
provisions.

I'm sorry, Aleksei22, I have found your comments prejudicial and, frankly, making very little sense. You have continuously disregarded valid points made to you, backed up by both the actions of all the historic participants and documents, failed to use credible sources, ignored timeframes and made deductions that require immense leaps of faith, willful misunderstanding, and even time travelling.

The snippet about the submarines above is a typical demonstration of your idiotic argumentation. Yes, Finland developed submarines with the Germans and others. Does that constitute conspiracy to attack the SU or explain the supposed hidden agenda of the Winter War? No.

If you disagree, could you explain what is the meaning of the Nazi - Soviet military co-operation in the late 20's-early 30's http://www.feldgrau.com/ger-sov.html?

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Post by Marcus » 27 Aug 2004 18:06

Earldor,

Please stay on topic, if you want to discuss the (interesting) German-Soviet pre-war collaboration, do so in another thread, thanks.

/Marcus

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Post by Harri » 27 Aug 2004 18:06

Aleksei22 wrote:
John T wrote:I have not seen any thing that supports that he in peace time intended offensive operations against USSR.
It was very HARD ( to USSR government ) to make a detailed
tracing of his "intentions" in 1937-1939, but current situation
(arms-racing ) and his "business" in 1918-1920 ( Order of the Day, Letter of War, restitution demands, etc ) - were well-known. Informed ( USSR government ) must made conclusions. Thats was done ( negotiations ). Finn' total ignorance responce - known too. "Windows of opportunities" was closed. Unique alternative to it - known ( to both sides ) too .....
I think there is a principal mistake there: Mannerheim didn't led Finland and he had limited political influence after 1919. His opinions were of course listened but he couldn't dictate anything. He wasn't even the Commander of Finnish Defence Forces (until during the war). Finnish State President (Kyösti Kallio), Finnish Government and especially our Parliament were those who decided - not Mannerheim.

These mentioned "negotiations" were of course a cunning try to achieve "an easy victory" without any costs and losses. That was typical Soviet tactics used by them all the time. Finns understood well enough what was going on - and we were right, like the history has shown.
Aleksei22 wrote:
John T wrote:When the democratic FInnish Cabinet descided taht they would not back down in 39, Manerheim had to adjust.
How we can coinside German-Finnish-Barbarossa-Alliance with Great-Finland ??? Winter-war ??? or Order of the Day ( 15 of march 1918 ) ????
What "alliance"? What "Great-Finland"? What these have to do with Winter War? Please explain us because we are so fool we really don't understand... :roll:
Aleksei22 wrote:
John wrote:Please elaborate on how the extremly profitable War business started teh winter war.
let see below some GENERAL remarks and refferences
. wrote:The Government's increased demands for war could be met from three sources:
1.— from an increase in the national output, ( long time-range )
2.- from capital resources
or
3.- from a diversion of the output normally devoted
to personal consumption. ( guns OR butter - (c) Goering )
:roll:
Aleksei22 wrote:
. wrote:
2 -
4. The Local Arsenal
The Depression ended with the increased expenditures
for national defense that followed the outbreak of war

in Europe. Late in April 1940, the Elgin National Watch
Company received a War Department contract for developing
equipment and a production plan for mechanical time fuses.
What are you trying to say? :?
Aleksei22 wrote: and very Fine essay
. wrote: The Lion and the Unicorn
by George Orwell (1941)
Well... :roll:
Aleksei22 wrote:BTW. Remember who was elected as president of Finland after 1939 WW ???? Did he was a banker?? Did he was PRO-GERMAN???
Also President J. K. Paasikivi and Mauno Koivisto were "bankers". Only Paasikivi was the Director of the private bank. Both Koivisto and R. Ryti were Head Directors of the Bank of Finland, "the bank of the Finnish Parliament", which regulated Finnish money and currencies.

State President K. Kallio died on 19.12.1940 and Risto Ryti (current Prime Minister) was elected to a new State President. Liberal Ryti was a well known Anglophile and freemason. Before becoming the State President in December 1940 he had been Minister and member of the parliament for a long time.

I couldn't find English version of this brief biography of Ryti (unfortunately this is in Finnish only, sorry):
http://www.huittinen.fi/html/ristoryti.htm
Aleksei22 wrote:I am sure you know how many words Mannerheim spend to describe a disastrous social and economy situation in Finland after 13 of march 1940.
To solve those problems - ONE's needs a money. Big Money !
Who OWNed them ?????? in 1940 ?????
Where they were ( money ) gained ????
I don't know what problems (but those caused by the Soviets) you mean. BTW what this has to do with the origins of Winter War?

It seems likely there were no "big" money. Are you asking who owned Finnish tax-payers' money?
Aleksei22 wrote:Did USSR wanted to "consume" Finland ( after WW ) ???
Aren't we talking about what supposedly happened before Winter War?
Aleksei22 wrote:Why USSR "returned" Petsamo to Finlang Again ????
Again post Winter War stuff...

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Post by Teukka » 27 Aug 2004 18:19

Aleksei22 wrote:
It was very HARD ( to USSR government ) to make a detailed
tracing of his "intentions" in 1937-1939, but current situation
(arms-racing ) and his "business"
in 1918-1920 ( Order of the Day, Letter of War, restitution demands, etc )
- were well-known. Informed ( USSR government ) must made
conclusions. Thats was done ( negotiations ). Finn' total
ignorance responce - known too. "Windows of opportunities" was closed.
Unique alternative to it - known ( to both sides ) too .....
In country like finland the head of armed forces does not make decisions on that magnitude!! Everything goes trough finnish goverment and I doupt there were so many antisoviet people that such "intentions" as you put it would get anywhere.

Aleksei22:
It,s sad that your love for your country makes you blind on its evil doings.
I look,d all your postings on this forum and I no longer wonder why you are so persistant on this issue (and others).
You are doing the same agitation and accusationing on war crimes board, pacific board etc.
You must be right, all the world is against your country.
Quess what, the great patriotic war was not so great and certainly not patriotic.
You are a nationalist agitator.

Aleksei22
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Post by Aleksei22 » 27 Aug 2004 18:38

Hello, Juke T,

Topspeed wrote:
Aleksei22 wrote:

It was very HARD ( to USSR government ) to make a detailed
tracing of his "intentions" in 1937-1939, but current situation
(arms-racing ) and his "business"
in 1918-1920 ( Order of the Day, Letter of War, restitution demands, etc )
- were well-known.

-------------------------------

Winter-war ??? or Order of the Day ( 15 of march 1918 ) ????

-------------------------------


Did USSR wanted to "consume" Finland ( after WW ) ???

Why USSR "returned" Petsamo to Finlang Again ????
Aleksei22,

Can you provide us March 15th Order of the Day and proof that Stalin had read it !
Sorry, but Mannerhein "converted" himself into OLD-FOX in
midd 1942, before that "dead-line" he looks like "small" Napoleon.
Before 1920-1930 it was Nord-Napoleonos-like. So, he was never
lacked of modesty neither in Finland, nor behind its boderlines.

Further, the problem was solved within operative-channels.



Topspeed wrote: When did Soviets return us Petsamo ?

regards,

Juke T

. wrote:
Software Translated


On March, 12, 1940 in Moscow the USSR-Finland peace
treaty has been signed. From the USSR it have signed:
Sovnarkom Chairman Vyacheslav
Molotov; a member of Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of
the USSR Andrey Zhdanov; the Cobrig of the Joint Staff
of the USS- Alexander Vasilevsky. From Finland:
Chairman of Council of Ministers Risto Rjuti; minister
Juho Paasikivi; general Charles Valden; a member of Foreign policy committee of
parliament Vjajne Vojonmaa.

Under territorial treaty provisions the frontier
of Finland and the USSR was established in a new shape.
To USSR authority were included all
Karelian isthmus with the city of Vyborg, the Vyborg
gulf and islands; western and northern coast of Ladoga
lake with the cities of Keksgolm, Sortavala, Syojarvi;
islands in gulf of Finland; territory to the east of
lake Merkijarvi with the city of Kuolajarvi; the
Finnish part of peninsulas Fishing and Middle which
thus have completely come in territory of the USSR.

The USSR has disengaged the armies from area
Pechenga (Ru) - Petsamo (Fi) which was annexed
it in 1920 under Tartu treaty provisions.
In far Nord - the former line of border was restored.



http://www.hrono.ru/dokum/tartu1920.html
Thank you.

//////////

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Post by Marcus » 27 Aug 2004 19:03

A discussion was split off into a thread entitled "Nazi-Soviet military co-operation".

/Marcus

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Post by Aleksei22 » 27 Aug 2004 19:30

Teukka wrote:Aleksei22 wrote:
It was very HARD ( to USSR government ) to make a detailed
tracing of his "intentions" in 1937-1939, but current situation
(arms-racing ) and his "business"
in 1918-1920 ( Order of the Day, Letter of War, restitution demands, etc )
- were well-known. Informed ( USSR government ) must made
conclusions. Thats was done ( negotiations ). Finn' total
ignorance responce - known too. "Windows of opportunities" was closed.
Unique alternative to it - known ( to both sides ) too .....
In country like finland the head of armed forces does not make decisions on that magnitude!! Everything goes trough finnish goverment and I doupt there were so many antisoviet people that such "intentions" as you put it would get anywhere.

Aleksei22:
It,s sad that your love for your country makes you blind on its evil doings.
I look,d all your postings on this forum and I no longer wonder why you are so persistant on this issue (and others).
You are doing the same agitation and accusationing on war crimes board, pacific board etc.
You must be right, all the world is against your country.
Quess what, the great patriotic war was not so great and certainly not patriotic.
You are a nationalist agitator.

Hello, Teukka

May i ask you for a little help???

. wrote:
Software translated

10-20 nov 1939. Finland forced the military preparation. Military minister of Finland J.Niukkanen has declared, that " war to us is more favourable, rather than satisfaction of Russia proposals "

Did he really declared this at public, or not ???


Thank you.

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Post by Mek » 27 Aug 2004 20:22

Aleksei22 wrote:
. wrote:
Software translated

10-20 nov 1939. Finland forced the military preparation. Military minister of Finland J.Niukkanen has declared, that " war to us is more favourable, rather than satisfaction of Russia proposals "

Did he really declared this at public, or not ???
I believe Niukkanen was aware of what was agreed in the Secret Protocol of Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, that USSR's target/goal was the whole country and he acted accordingly to that. He was one of the ministers that wanted to request help from France-Britain and opposed the Moscow peace treaty of 1940.

Regards,
-Pete

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Post by Topspeed » 27 Aug 2004 20:24

Aleksei22 wrote:Sorry, but Mannerhein "converted" himself into OLD-FOX in
midd 1942, before that "dead-line" he looks like "small" Napoleon.
Before 1920-1930 it was Nord-Napoleonos-like. So, he was never
lacked of modesty neither in Finland, nor behind its boderlines.
Further, the problem was solved within operative-channels.
Are you referring to the picture with two german decorations again ?
The problem...was Mannerheim the problem ?
So he was the " most wanted man " in Soviet Union, because he stood up for liberty and justice. I agree he was modest man 100 %.

Aleksei22 wrote:
Software Translated =>

On March, 12, 1940 in Moscow the USSR-Finland peace
treaty has been signed.

The USSR has disengaged the armies from area
Pechenga (Ru) - Petsamo (Fi) which was annexed
it in 1920 under Tartu treaty provisions.
In far Nord - the former line of border was restored.
If it was returned, how come we don't have it ?


rgrds,

Juke

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