Hello, all
WoW, just a lingvo-Question.
Sotamarsalkka == Marshall ( rank mil. ) ????????????
ps. "==" - means IDENTICAL .
Thank you.
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WoW, just a lingvo-Q
WoW, just a lingvo-Q
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Suomen Marsalkka = Marshal of Finland
Sotamarsalkka = Field Marshal
If I remember correctly, the former was more like a formal honourary title than an official military rank, and higher, while the latter was an official rank. In practice, neither of these has ever been granted to any other person than Mannerheim.
Think of the Russian ranks
Marshal Sovietskii Soyuz
Feldmarshal
Sotamarsalkka = Field Marshal
If I remember correctly, the former was more like a formal honourary title than an official military rank, and higher, while the latter was an official rank. In practice, neither of these has ever been granted to any other person than Mannerheim.
Think of the Russian ranks
Marshal Sovietskii Soyuz
Feldmarshal
C. G. E. Mannerheim's official military rank was Cavalry General because there is no such ranks as Field Marshal or Marshal of Finland in Finnish Army. These both were actually "honorary titles" granted by Finnish Parliament. Title Marshal of Finland was given on 4.6.1942 at Mannerheim's 75th birthday.
Actually, the rank of sotamarsalkka (Field Marshal) was an official rank in the Finnish military. The rank of Suomen Marsalkka, on the other hand, was an honorary title.Harri wrote:C. G. E. Mannerheim's official military rank was Cavalry General because there is no such ranks as Field Marshal or Marshal of Finland in Finnish Army. These both were actually "honorary titles" granted by Finnish Parliament. Title Marshal of Finland was given on 4.6.1942 at Mannerheim's 75th birthday.
In Finnish http://www.mannerheim.fi/10_ylip/s_arvoni.htm
In English http://www.mannerheim.fi/10_ylip/e_arvoni.htm
In Swedish http://www.mannerheim.fi/navi-r/10_keh.htm
In German http://www.mannerheim.fi/navi-d/10_keh.htm
No, I don't agree, both are unofficial honorary titles. Finnish Defence Forces has never had such military ranks. The text on Mannerheim page don't support your claim:
sotilasarvo = [military] rank
arvo[nimi] = titleOn 19 May, 1933, Mannerheim was awarded the title of Field Marshal in connection with the 15th anniversary of the end of the War of Independence.
sotilasarvo = [military] rank
Actually, it does: "The idea of entitling him Marshal of Finland came up, as there were no ranks above the rank of Field Marshal in the Finnish army."Sorry, you're wrong. Not a definitive source, but you're welcome to check the matter: http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/SotilasarvoHarri wrote:No, I don't agree, both are unofficial honorary titles. Finnish Defence Forces has never had such military ranks.
The text on Mannerheim page don't support your claim
No, you are wrong. There were/are no military rank of Field Marshal in Finland. General is our highest military rank.
There is a mistake in the text if it says something else. Read this again:
On 19 May, 1933, Mannerheim was awarded the title of Field Marshal in connection with the 15th anniversary of the end of the War of Independence.
There is a mistake in the text if it says something else. Read this again:
On 19 May, 1933, Mannerheim was awarded the title of Field Marshal in connection with the 15th anniversary of the end of the War of Independence.
The Finnish encyclopedia Facta 2001 lists Sotamarsalkka as one of the military ranks used in Finland. The encyclopedia further notes that in the statute given in 1964 this rank is not listed.
Also, the Finnish-language pages of http://www.mannerheim.fi/10_ylip/s_arvoni.htm clearly distinguishes between arvo and arvonimi. I think the Finnish-language version should be here seen as primary.
This is in accordance with several other sources that have dealt with this matter. But of course, this military rank was created for Mannerheim and no other officer has ever been promoted to that rank.
Suomen marsalkka, on the other hand, is clearly a honorary title.
regards,
Tapani K.
Also, the Finnish-language pages of http://www.mannerheim.fi/10_ylip/s_arvoni.htm clearly distinguishes between arvo and arvonimi. I think the Finnish-language version should be here seen as primary.
This is in accordance with several other sources that have dealt with this matter. But of course, this military rank was created for Mannerheim and no other officer has ever been promoted to that rank.
Suomen marsalkka, on the other hand, is clearly a honorary title.
regards,
Tapani K.
I have seen also older (than 1964) lists of Finnish military ranks and there have never been rank of Field Marshal. I agree the difference between title and rank is not significant in this case because only one person had (or even could have) that one. If Field Marshal really was an official military rank in Finland it was created only for one specific person and it is thus equal to honorary title (or in practice a "pay class" like they used to be in state's jobs 
although Mannerheim was officially retired officer in the 1930's). The way Mannerheim was titled was also similar to other titles (based on a proposal by someones).
although Mannerheim was officially retired officer in the 1930's). The way Mannerheim was titled was also similar to other titles (based on a proposal by someones).OK. I was wrong.Tapani K. wrote:I think it is fairly clear that when this rank was created it was
a) seen as a military rank basically like any other
b) created especially for Mannerheim.
I should have checked earlier from the P. Huhtala's "Reserviupseeri" (1940) I have. On page 558 it says:
It seems that Field Marshal was one of the Generals. Interestingly there is no equal rank in the Navy, probably because navy was earlier led by coastal artillery officer (Lt.Gen. V. Valve).- Officers.
...
Officers' military ranks in land and air forces and in coastal artillery are:
- Generals:
---- Field Marshal,
---- General (Infantry, Artillery, Cavalry etc.),
---- Lieutenant General,
---- Major General.
....
It is also interesting that there could have been also other Generals than Infantry (Heinrichs), Artillery (Nenonen) and Cavalry General (well none if Mannerheim is not counted). In practice there have been none other later (all were Infantry Generals, even A. Ehrnrooth), I think?
Thank you for correcting me!!
The Finnish Army isn't and wasn't very large, so the need for that many general/flag officers wasn't that great. The practical side of the matters could be affected by a top heavy organization. In other words, there was no need for a Grand Admiral or Admiral of the Fleet, or something similar, since the whole army (army, navy and air force) was small and led in reality by the single Field Marshal.Harri wrote: It seems that Field Marshal was one of the Generals. Interestingly there is no equal rank in the Navy, probably because navy was earlier led by coastal artillery officer (Lt.Gen. V. Valve).
I'm not entirely sure. A friend of my family, major general Pehr-Johan Gummerus, died in the late 60s and he was a signals general. He wore his single lion on the purple background of the signals troops, not the current red of a general officer.It is also interesting that there could have been also other Generals than Infantry (Heinrichs), Artillery (Nenonen) and Cavalry General (well none if Mannerheim is not counted). In practice there have been none other later (all were Infantry Generals, even A. Ehrnrooth), I think?
I've been meaning to buy this book for a long time, but if you have access to it, you could check the matter.
"Palokangas, Marko:
Itsenäisen Suomen sotilasarvot ja -arvomerkit - Suomen maavoimien sotilasarvomerkkijärjestelmä ja arvoasteiden merkitsemistavat vuosina 1917 - 2000" Apali Oy (Military Ranks and Rank Badges of Independent Finland)
No, problem.Thank you for correcting me!!
If there was a single lion in the late 1960's that means his rank was Kenraalimajuri, Major General, without reference to the service in his official title.Earldor wrote:I'm not entirely sure. A friend of my family, major general Pehr-Johan Gummerus, died in the late 60s and he was a signals general. He wore his single lion on the purple background of the signals troops, not the current red of a general officer.
The use of the prefix referring to the particular service, such as Jalkaväenkenraali (Infantry General), Tykistönkenraali (Artillery General), or Ratsuväenkenraali (Cavalry General) required the rank of a full General, with three lions.