Start of the WINTER WAR / Mainila shots

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
Hosted by Juha Tompuri
User avatar
Topspeed
Member
Posts: 4785
Joined: 15 Jun 2004, 16:19
Location: Finland

Start of the WINTER WAR / Mainila shots

#1

Post by Topspeed » 18 Aug 2004, 15:45

Let's discuss it:

Date, and who did what !

Juke T

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002, 23:35
Location: Europe
Contact:

#2

Post by Marcus » 18 Aug 2004, 16:57

How about starting by sharing your own thoughts on the matter?

/Marcus


User avatar
Topspeed
Member
Posts: 4785
Joined: 15 Jun 2004, 16:19
Location: Finland

#3

Post by Topspeed » 18 Aug 2004, 17:32

Okay,

26th of November 1939 at 14:45 of finnish time and 15:45 soviet time 7 rounds of artillery shells were fired 800 meters to the soviet side.
Soviets claimed that those holes created were from finnish guns. The artillery craters were at the Mainila village close to the border. The frontierguards said they heard lotsa firing and loud singing the same nite too. Finns were issued so hard restrictions that even a shot at the clouds would have meant courtmartial, so a tense was the atmosphere.
Shells were fired by soviets intentionally and they claimed finns had started to pound on them and started the attack on Finland; a war had started on a cold winter day with snow blowing at quite high speeds.
Soviets claimed that 4 died and 7 were injured. Finnish frontier guards say they looked at the site and saw only soviets investigating the holes, but no bodies nor wounded were being moved. Guards even recall someone having taking a leak at one of the holes.

The act was typical soviet provocation a la Stalin.

Correct me if I remebered wrong ? Story is here ( seven mysterious ditches ): http://www.veteraanienperinto.fi/suomi/ ... ppaa_m.htm


regards,

Juke T

Aleksei22
Banned
Posts: 252
Joined: 04 Oct 2003, 21:49
Location: Russia

#4

Post by Aleksei22 » 18 Aug 2004, 18:23

Hello, JukeT

May i ask you a question ???

Did MAINILLAA accident was UNIQ or , may-be there were a bit more ones like it in "vicinity" of last november/october days of 1939 ???

Thank you.

[remarks dealing with stealing software was removed /webmaster]

User avatar
Topspeed
Member
Posts: 4785
Joined: 15 Jun 2004, 16:19
Location: Finland

#5

Post by Topspeed » 18 Aug 2004, 18:33

Aleksei22 wrote:Hello, JukeT

May i ask you a question ???

Did MAINILLAA accident was UNIQ or , may-be there were a bit more ones like it in "vicinity" of last november/october days of 1939 ???

Thank you.

[remarks dealing with stealing software was removed /webmaster]
Hello Aleksei,

The finnish frontier guards thought those holes were made by pioneers in Soviet Russia and also investigated them from a distance. This was very unique incident, but soviets in general had no bann on firearms fire at the fronts..even machine guns were heard fired on the same day. It was 19:00 when Molotov sent Finland an Ultimatum about the incident and finns were stupified about it !


regards,

Juke T

Aleksei22
Banned
Posts: 252
Joined: 04 Oct 2003, 21:49
Location: Russia

#6

Post by Aleksei22 » 18 Aug 2004, 18:49

Topspeed wrote:
Aleksei22 wrote:Hello, JukeT

May i ask you a question ???

Did MAINILLAA accident was UNIQ or , may-be there were a bit more ones like it in "vicinity" of last november/october days of 1939 ???

Thank you.

[remarks dealing with stealing software was removed /webmaster]
Hello Aleksei,

The finnish frontier guards thought those holes were made by pioneers in Soviet Russia and also investigated them from a distance. This was very unique incident, but soviets in general had no bann on firearms fire at the fronts..even machine guns were heard fired on the same day. It was 19:00 when Molotov sent Finland an Ultimatum about the incident and finns were stupified about it !


regards,

Juke T
Hello, Juket

Does it means that you firmly STATES that no-one "firearms fire" accident wasnt inspirited by finns on the "border" in 1939 ( november-october ) ???

Sami_K
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: 10 Apr 2002, 08:46
Location: Finland

#7

Post by Sami_K » 18 Aug 2004, 18:50

Aleksei22 wrote:Hello, JukeT

May i ask you a question ???

Did MAINILLAA accident was UNIQ or , may-be there were a bit more ones like it in "vicinity" of last november/october days of 1939 ???

Thank you.

[remarks dealing with stealing software was removed /webmaster]
Actually it was pretty unique.

No other alleged or actual incident involved artillery fire. Got to give the Germans credit that they at least tried to make it look like the Poles had attacked the radio station. A lot more than what NKVD did.

On 28 November 1939, three Finnish Border Guards were abducted from their Pummanki border post in Petsamo. Corporal Salkio as well as privates Simonen and Korhonen (no relation :) ) were captured and they spent the soon-to-be-started Winter War as POWs.
(source: Vuorio A. "Petsamo Talvisodan kourissa", p. 34-35)
I've got the names of the Finns abducted. The USSR has never published the names of the alleged casualties of the Mainila incident.

Cheers,
Sami

User avatar
Tiwaz
Member
Posts: 1946
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 11:36
Location: Finland

#8

Post by Tiwaz » 18 Aug 2004, 19:12

Aleksei22 wrote:Does it means that you firmly STATES that no-one "firearms fire" accident wasnt inspirited by finns on the "border" in 1939 ( november-october ) ???
Do you have solid proof of opposite?
Why don't you show it to us?

User avatar
Topspeed
Member
Posts: 4785
Joined: 15 Jun 2004, 16:19
Location: Finland

#9

Post by Topspeed » 18 Aug 2004, 19:32

Aleksei22 wrote: Does it means that you firmly STATES that no-one "firearms fire" accident wasnt inspirited by finns on the "border" in 1939 ( november-october ) ???
I am positive. Only here I read that Churhill mentioned firearm incident..never heard of any other firearm incident, neither claiming anything else.

rgrds,

Juke T

Aleksei22
Banned
Posts: 252
Joined: 04 Oct 2003, 21:49
Location: Russia

#10

Post by Aleksei22 » 18 Aug 2004, 19:54

Topspeed wrote:
I am positive. Only here I read that Churhill mentioned firearm incident..never heard of any other firearm incident, neither claiming anything else.

rgrds,

Juke T
"Churhill mentioned firearm...." - do you mean Hanski forgery ???

Thank you.

User avatar
Tiwaz
Member
Posts: 1946
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 11:36
Location: Finland

#11

Post by Tiwaz » 18 Aug 2004, 19:58

Aleksei22 wrote:
Topspeed wrote:
I am positive. Only here I read that Churhill mentioned firearm incident..never heard of any other firearm incident, neither claiming anything else.

rgrds,

Juke T
"Churhill mentioned firearm...." - do you mean Hanski forgery ???

Thank you.

And your proof of it being forgery?

Start providing proof for your claims!

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11562
Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
Location: Mylsä

#12

Post by Juha Tompuri » 18 Aug 2004, 20:10

Aleksei22 wrote:Hello, JukeT

May i ask you a question ???

Did MAINILLAA accident was UNIQ or , may-be there were a bit more ones like it in "vicinity" of last november/october days of 1939 ???
It was quite unique.
Finns seldom had (by then) wittnessed Soviet artillery/mortar fire against their own people (Viapori 1906, Kronstadt 1921, ... )
Aleksei wrote:Hanski forgery
as Tiwaz wrote: prove.

Regards, Juha

User avatar
Topspeed
Member
Posts: 4785
Joined: 15 Jun 2004, 16:19
Location: Finland

#13

Post by Topspeed » 18 Aug 2004, 21:43

Aleksei22 wrote: "Churhill mentioned firearm...." - do you mean Hanski forgery ???
Aleksei,

I am afraid if was text from Englands prime minister Winston Churchill memoirs that had that little "duckling" written in there ! No one is perfect...maybe he had a glass or two little too much that nite. :lol: :lol: :lol:

best regards,

Juke T :| :wink: :roll:

User avatar
Hanski
Member
Posts: 1887
Joined: 24 Aug 2002, 20:18
Location: Helsinki

#14

Post by Hanski » 18 Aug 2004, 21:55

Oh, please....!

Could you kindly read this short thread: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57185


(... and pausing to think before posting could do no harm...)

User avatar
Topspeed
Member
Posts: 4785
Joined: 15 Jun 2004, 16:19
Location: Finland

#15

Post by Topspeed » 18 Aug 2004, 22:20

Here is the Aleksei brought text once again:
On 26 November Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov handed to the Finnish Minister in Moscow, Baron Aarno Yrjo-Koskinen*, a strongly worded note, saying:
"Our troops posted on the Karelian Isthmus, in the vicinity of the village of Mainila, were the object today, November 26, at 3.45 p.m., of unexpected artillery fire from Finnish territory. In all, seven cannon-shots were fired, killing three privates and one non-commissioned officer. . . . The Soviet troops . . . did not retaliate.
The Soviet Government are obliged to declare now that the concentration of Finnish troops in the vicinity of Leningrad not only constitutes a menace to Leningrad, but is in fact an act hostile to the USSR, which has already resulted in aggression against the Soviet troops and caused casualties. . . . .
The Government of the USSR have no intention of exaggerating the importance of this revolting act . . ., but they desire that revolting acts of this nature shall not be committed in future".
('The Development of Finnish-Soviet Relations . . .'; op. cit.; p. 70-71).
The Soviet government therefore proposed:
"That the Finnish Government should, without delay, withdraw their troops on the Karelian Isthmus from the frontier to a distance of 20-25 km., and thus preclude all possibility of a repetition of provocative acts".
('The Development of Finnish-Soviet Relations . . .'; op. cit.; p. 71).
The Finnish government replied on 27 November, denying that their troops had been responsible for the incident complained of and proposing, firstly, that discussions should take place on the mutual withdrawal of both Finnish and Soviet troops from the frontier and, secondly, that a joint inquiry should be held into the incident:
"It is my duty to reject your protest and to state that Finland has committed no hostile act against the USSR such as you allege.
Although there are no concrete grounds for withdrawing the troops from the frontier-line, as you propose, my Government is prepared, none the less, to open conversations with a view to the mutual withdrawal of troops to a certain distance from the frontier. . . .
My Government propose that the frontier commissioners of the two countries on the Karelian Isthmus should be instructed to carry out a joint inquiry into the incident in question."
('The Development of Finnish-Soviet Relations . . . '; op. cit.; p. 72-73).
On 28 November, Molotov handed a further Note to the Finnish Minister stating that, in view of the conduct of the Finnish government, the Soviet government considered the non-aggression pact between the two countries signed in 1932 to be null and void:
"In concentrating a large number of regular troops in the immediate vicinity of Leningrad and subjecting that important vital centre of the USSR to a direct threat, the Finnish Government have committed a hostile act against the USSR which is incompatible with the Treaty of Non-Aggression concluded between the two States. The refusal of the Finnish Government, after the criminal artillery fire directed at the Soviet troops, to withdraw their troops a distance of 20-25 km., shows that the Finnish Government desire to persist in their hostile attitude towards the USSR. . . . In consequence, the Government of the USSR are obliged to state that they consider themselves, as from today, released from the obligations ensuing from the Treaty of Non-Aggression concluded between the USSR and Finland".
('The Development of Finnish-Soviet Relations . . . , ; op. cit,.; p. 74).
On the following day, 29 November, Molotov handed a further Note to Yrjo-Koskinen complaining that Finnish attacks on Soviet troops were continuing and effectively breaking off diplomatic relations with Finland:
"Attacks on Soviet troops by Finnish troops are known to be continuing, not only on the Karelian Isthmus, but also at other parts of the frontier between the USSR and Finland. The Government of the USSR can no longer tolerate such a situation. As a result of the situation thus created, . . . the Government of the USSR . . . find themselves compelled to recall their political and economic representatives from Finland".
('The Development of Finnish-Soviet Relations . . .' ; op. cit.; p. 75).
The above version of the facts -- that the Finnish armed forces were the instigators of the frontier incidents which had occurred -- was confirmed by the British Prime Minister Winston Churchill in February 1945:
"The Finnish war began in the following way. . . . Some Russian frontier guards were shot at by the Finns and killed. . . . The frontier guard detachment complained to the Red Army troops. . . . Moscow was asked for instructions. These contained the order to return the fire". (W. S. Churchill: 'The Second World War', Volume 6: 'Triumph and Tragedy'; London; 1954; p. 317-18).
Both explanations are there too.

Okay Hanski it was Sir Winston Churchill writing what he was told by Stalin. Old Winnie forgot to ask finns how the thang really went; no biggie.

regards,

Juke T

Post Reply

Return to “Winter War & Continuation War”