I Googled this news item, unfortunately it bears no date.
http://www.mtv3.fi/uutiset/arkisto/9611 ... 70110.html
Translated into English it says:
A Russian study: the Mainila shots were rehearsed
(Updated 15:26)
The Red Army rehearsed in advance the Mainila shots which started the Winter War. The Russian historian Yuri Kilin tells in the Karjala newspaper to be issued on Thursday that the Red Army was excercising frontier incidents in the village of Mainila already in July 1939. The Red Army fired into its own positions on the 26 November of the same year, accusing the Finns for it.
Kilin from Petrozavodsk bases his article on previously unused documents from the Archives of the Russian Navy. According to those, the Red Army planned an attack against Finland already since the 1920's. The war plans had their own alternatives for a summer and a winter war. The summer plans included the conquest of the Åland islands.
(STT = The Finnish News Agency)
----
Has anyone heard more on Yuri Kilin's research?
Start of the WINTER WAR / Mainila shots
Whoah, thats interesting. I haven't heard about his research, I wonder if thats available in some published book. USSR had planned attacking Finland already in the 1920's? I wonder were those plans for pre-emptive strike or for complete occupation Finland.Hanski wrote:I Googled this news item, unfortunately it bears no date.
http://www.mtv3.fi/uutiset/arkisto/9611 ... 70110.html
Translated into English it says:
A Russian study: the Mainila shots were rehearsed
I presume that the article is from November 27th of 1996, at least looking at the url seems like it could be a date.
Regards,
-Pete
He was on TV today. He said Stalins war archives are still unaccessible by the public ? Soviets used 33 divisions on 1944 in Karelian Isthmus. Their advance was stopped by the bloodshed that took place. Soviets did not have more forces to deploy for time being at the finnish front. Yuri seems to be a well researching guy.Hanski wrote:
Has anyone heard more on Yuri Kilin's research?
I also heard elsewhere that soviet VSS had 4 000 aeroplanes against us in 1944...is that true ?
JT
One has to remember that all the military forces (at least the ones worth the money invested on them) make all kinds of contingency plans. Thus these Soviet plans don't necessarily mean they were actively preparing to invade Finland already in the 1920s.Whoah, thats interesting. I haven't heard about his research, I wonder if thats available in some published book. USSR had planned attacking Finland already in the 1920's? I wonder were those plans for pre-emptive strike or for complete occupation Finland.
Hi Bair,
Finnish military planning in the beginning of 1920's was based on the military weakness of Soviet Union. It seemed possible to push the war into Soviet territory in order to gain better defensive positions. No doubt there were also other motives given the events then. This thinking was revised already in the second half of 1920's when the Soviet regime consolidated its position. After that Finnish planning became defensive and concentrated on defending the country within its borders. Winter War again changed the situation because it proved that there was a back door to Finland North of Ladoga. In order to close this door the old plans were dusted and when the war started again in 1941 Finns pushed deep into Soviet Karelia. It has been discussed ever since was it worth the price. Last comment I have seen on the issue was written in Suomen Kuvalehti by Pentti Iisalo (Mannerheim cross winner) where he thought that it had to be done for its military logic. He also wrote from his own experience that they really needed the space in 1944 under the pressure of the Red Army.
Best regards,
Jari
Finnish military planning in the beginning of 1920's was based on the military weakness of Soviet Union. It seemed possible to push the war into Soviet territory in order to gain better defensive positions. No doubt there were also other motives given the events then. This thinking was revised already in the second half of 1920's when the Soviet regime consolidated its position. After that Finnish planning became defensive and concentrated on defending the country within its borders. Winter War again changed the situation because it proved that there was a back door to Finland North of Ladoga. In order to close this door the old plans were dusted and when the war started again in 1941 Finns pushed deep into Soviet Karelia. It has been discussed ever since was it worth the price. Last comment I have seen on the issue was written in Suomen Kuvalehti by Pentti Iisalo (Mannerheim cross winner) where he thought that it had to be done for its military logic. He also wrote from his own experience that they really needed the space in 1944 under the pressure of the Red Army.
Best regards,
Jari
Hello, JariJariL wrote:Hi Bair,
Finnish military planning in the beginning of 1920's was based on the military weakness of Soviet Union. It seemed possible to push the war into Soviet territory in order to gain better defensive positions. No doubt there were also other motives given the events then. This thinking was revised already in the second half of 1920's when the Soviet regime consolidated its position. After that Finnish planning became defensive and concentrated on defending the country within its borders. Winter War again changed the situation because it proved that there was a back door to Finland North of Ladoga. In order to close this door the old plans were dusted and when the war started again in 1941 Finns pushed deep into Soviet Karelia. It has been discussed ever since was it worth the price. Last comment I have seen on the issue was written in Suomen Kuvalehti by Pentti Iisalo (Mannerheim cross winner) where he thought that it had to be done for its military logic. He also wrote from his own experience that they really needed the space in 1944 under the pressure of the Red Army.
Best regards,
Jari
According to Ditmar's memoirs ( if i am not mistaken the name of those german general - Finnish offensive to Soviet Karelia was ordered by Hitler.
To make of strong gerantee for tose offencive - one german's riffle devision stood as "reserve" behind of finnish troops.
Is it true ????
Thank you.
Hi Aleksei22,Aleksei22 wrote: According to Ditmar's memoirs ( if i am not mistaken the name of those german general - Finnish offensive to Soviet Karelia was ordered by Hitler.
To make of strong gerantee for tose offencive - one german's riffle devision stood as "reserve" behind of finnish troops.
I am not Jari, but you ought to know by now that finns had command on their own hands. There was General Siilasvuo in Lappland doing a common operation with Germans. Attack on Karelia in Continuation War was nothing than taking back what had been lost in the Winter War and pushing the war on soviet territory.
And futhermore this has nothing to do with MAINILA SHOTS that started Winter War.
rgrds,
Juke T
Hello, Juke TTopspeed wrote:Hi Aleksei22,Aleksei22 wrote: According to Ditmar's memoirs ( if i am not mistaken the name of those german general - Finnish offensive to Soviet Karelia was ordered by Hitler.
To make of strong gerantee for tose offencive - one german's riffle devision stood as "reserve" behind of finnish troops.
I am not Jari, but you ought to know by now that finns had command on their own hands. There was General Siilasvuo in Lappland doing a common operation with Germans. Attack on Karelia in Continuation War was nothing than taking back what had been lost in the Winter War and pushing the war on soviet territory.
And futhermore this has nothing to do with MAINILA SHOTS that started Winter War.
rgrds,
Juke T
Thank you for comments. I gave a short comments related to Ditmar's report written by him just after 1945 for Americans.
As you know now Manillaa incident had no one refference for starting of WW.Topspeed wrote:[
And futhermore this has nothing to do with MAINILA SHOTS that started Winter War.
Thank you.
Hi Aleksei22,
German 163rd Division belonged to the Karelian army. Its task was to advance from Svir to meet the German troops advancing along the south coast of lake Ladoga. Germans never made it there and thus the 163 remained in reserve for the duration of the attack. The attack in Soviet Karelia was not motivated only in order to facilitate German operations but crossing of the Svir was. That was the bridge head for the 163rd to start its planned advance to meet Army Group North.
Finnish attacks in the area of III army core (Siilasvuo) were done to fullfill German wishes. Strategic importance of that operation to Finland was low from the beginning unlike the attack in Karelia, which had clear military advantages as a buffer zone.
Best regards,
Jari
German 163rd Division belonged to the Karelian army. Its task was to advance from Svir to meet the German troops advancing along the south coast of lake Ladoga. Germans never made it there and thus the 163 remained in reserve for the duration of the attack. The attack in Soviet Karelia was not motivated only in order to facilitate German operations but crossing of the Svir was. That was the bridge head for the 163rd to start its planned advance to meet Army Group North.
Finnish attacks in the area of III army core (Siilasvuo) were done to fullfill German wishes. Strategic importance of that operation to Finland was low from the beginning unlike the attack in Karelia, which had clear military advantages as a buffer zone.
Best regards,
Jari
Soviet planes were vulnerable to flak too. AAA scored almost half of the soviet losses.Steady wrote: Soviet assault in 1944 was supported by 1300 aircraft from the 13th Air Army. In addition, 220 aircraft from the Red Banner Baltic Fleet were giving flank support. After 38 days of assault, the 13th Air Army possessed only 800 aircraft. Quite a loss ratio!
I think it is a miracle that so small finnish air force was able to do its primary mission on Karelian Isthmus on June-July 1944. That was to attack the 1500 tank strong spearheads with Ju 88s ( + Ju 87 Stukas and FW 190 jabos of Kurt Kuhlmey squadron ) protection of those divebombers was the sole purpose of the fighters. Aerial engagements on several sorties per day was also men/plane consuming for the finns. Some reckonmissions were flown too. Bomber interception was also one task, but not as vital as securing that own bombers reached target areas and returned safely.
Have you seen those 1944 TK-film flicks of Me 109s flying tail high over the trenches into the Soviets side with throttle at the gaugepanel ? There were hardly any trees left standing after soviets pounding our troops with artillery. Very gloomy, but certainly a sight of relief for the troopers to see that someone was fighting back since many on the ground couldn't anymore.
rgds,
Juke
Finns also used Blenheims, Do-17's and captured russian bombers against the Soviets during 1944. The long line of lumbering bombers, some flying at barely over 300 km per hour, must have made for an irresistible target for enemy fighters. Still, not one of those bombers was shot down by enemy fliers while being escorted by fighters, not that the Soviets did not try, several fighters were shot down from behind bombers tails.
