swatiskas in winter war

[cyberdaemon]

the finnish airplanes had swatiskas under theyr wings.
if finnish were not allies to the germany , then wtf
did these markings doing on the finnish airplane ?

[Jari]

Why don't you just do a forum or Google search? It's not that hard to find out.

Like in this thread

In a nutshell, it was painted on the wings of a biplane donated to the White Army by a Swedish count in 1918.

[Topspeed]

The plane was a swedish made version of Bleriot XI and it was called Thulin monoplane. It was not a biplane. Count von Rosen gave it as a present in 1918 and soon we got more planes ( Niuport 11 ) from fleeing Russian ex-Csar pilots, who remained in Finland after Russian Revolution 1917. I am not sure actually which planes were older. I think Niuports were used for aerobatics.

Here is a Thulin ( from " white as snow " ):

[Christian W.]

Also, the equipment that Germany donated to Finland during the Continuation War, tanks, planes, usually had swatiskas.

[Jari]

Also, the equipment that Germany donated to Finland during the Continuation War, tanks, planes, usually had swatiskas.

Huh? The StuG's that Germans sold did have the German Balkenkreuz insignia, as can be seen in this one:
http://www.andreaslarka.net/ps531016/ps531016.html
but not swastikas. The Finnish hakaristi insignia was then added to them as they were painted into the Finnish camo scheme, but that was independent of the equipment being bought from the Germans. The British Vickers tanks and captured Soviet tanks got the same insignia.

[Andreas Lärka]

Also, the equipment that Germany donated to Finland during the Continuation War, tanks, planes, usually had swatiskas.

The equipment that Finland received from Germany during the Continuation War was of course painted in German colours and markings. The Finnish Armed Forces changed the German markings into Finnish ones. If Finland should have had another national marking than the swastika - then the markings should have been changed into this one instead.

By this ranting I simply want to emphasize that Finland had it's own national markings and that the Finnish swastika did not have anything to do with the nazi-german one.

[Jari]

By the way, whose idea was it originally to take the airforces swastika into use for the armoured forces and when it happened? I dimly recall that still in summer 1940 the T-26's had the blue-and-white stripes on the turret.

[Andreas Lärka]

I dimly recall that still in summer 1940 the T-26's had the blue-and-white stripes on the turret.

Jupp. The Winter War national markings for the tanks were the white-blue-white stripes. The swastika was taken into use just before the Continuation War, but I can't recall exactly when for the moment. There is exact info in Muikku & Purhonen's "The Finnish Armoured Vehicles" -book.
I also believe that the Finnish tank-swastika came from the Finnish Airforce and not from the German Nazis...

[Sami_K]

the finnish airplanes had swatiskas under theyr wings.
if finnish were not allies to the germany , then wtf
did these markings doing on the finnish airplane ?

As you can see from the picture: Finland was clearly a Nazi-German ally in 1918!
http://www.jiop.fi/ksimuseo/thulind.html
...wait a minute, I thought Nazism didn't even exist at the time!?!?!?


Cheers,
Sami

[Topspeed]

I don't know for sure, but Akseli Gallen-Kallela did most of the ornamentation for the armed forces.

His son captain Gallen-Kallela died on the first day of the Winter War when capturing a soviet parachuted airman from a downed bomber over Helsinki. He was the first officer "down" in the war.

Swastika was considered a good luck charm at those days.

The "notorious" image came after the war, because of the nazis party emblem...a tilted black swastika on a white roundel with a rectangular red background.

Finnish AF "hakaristi" was national emblem; a blue on white roundel ( grey at the end of the war => low visibility ).

Germanys national emblem was a black cross as always.

Latvia had also a black tilted swastika on their planes assymtrically on the wings as national insignia !



cheers,

Juke T

[Jari]

I dimly recall that still in summer 1940 the T-26's had the blue-and-white stripes on the turret.

Jupp. The Winter War national markings for the tanks were the white-blue-white stripes. The swastika was taken into use just before the Continuation War, but I can't recall exactly when for the moment. There is exact info in Muikku & Purhonen's "The Finnish Armoured Vehicles" -book.
I also believe that the Finnish tank-swastika came from the Finnish Airforce and not from the German Nazis...

The exact shape of the tank swastika was that which is in the "Vapaudenristi" (Cross of Liberty, a knighthood established in 1918 and also a symbol in the Presidential flag).

Is Vapaudenristi a derivative of von Rosen's cross, or did it have a different history?

But it is credible that the tank forces followed the example of the air forces here. It's not impossible though that there is some connection to Germans as it was taken into that use at the time when Finland created close military ties with Germany - some pro-German officer being creative...

But it's nevertheless good to remember that normally Germans didn't use swastikas on their tanks, so it wasn't mimicked from them.


P.S. It is also not totally out the question that this would be the origin of the Finnish swastika:

[Topspeed]

But it is credible that the tank forces followed the example of the air forces here. It's not impossible though that there is some connection to Germans as it was taken into that use at the time when Finland created close military ties with Germany - some pro-German officer being creative...

But it's nevertheless good to remember that normally Germans didn't use swastikas on their tanks, so it wasn't mimicked from them.


P.S. It is also not totally out the question that this would be the origin of the Finnish swastika:

I think it was a very powerful symbol back then...very violent and militaristic when you really think about it. Present symbol is much more peaceful.

Some people really still like the blue swastika.

cheers,

Juke T

[Juha Tompuri]

The plane was a swedish made version of Bleriot XI and it was called Thulin monoplane.

Err...It wasn't Bleriot.

The Thulin D is a two-seat reconnaissance aircraft of wooden construction. It is a Swedish, licence-built version of the French Morane-Saulnier L, approx. 600 of which were built between 1913 and 1915.

http://www.jiop.fi/ksimuseo/thulind.html

Regards, Juha

[Hanski]

We have been through this swastika discussion before.

See: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=45522

[Topspeed]

The Thulin D is a two-seat reconnaissance aircraft of wooden construction. It is a Swedish, licence-built version of the French Morane-Saulnier L, approx. 600 of which were built between 1913 and 1915.

Okay, one of the Thulin's plane was a Bleriot copy too...apparently the one in Finland was not.

JT