Mannerheims famous 1941 Order of the Day

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Mannerheims famous 1941 Order of the Day

Post by Topspeed » 17 Aug 2004 17:34

[Split from "Most Russians were armed with rifles."]



Aleksei22,

What about the famous 1941 Order of the Day where Mannerheim decleares thet the day has come that Karelia will be liberated by its own people like he had promissed in 1918 ?

Juke T :?

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Post by JariL » 18 Aug 2004 08:00

Alexei22,

Teh link was to a copy of the original order of the day. I don't think that he signed the order personally before it was published. But he did not deny writing it later on so signature does not have any relevance in that respect.

In a text like you quoted it would be pretty unusual to write "fire from automatic and semi-automatic weapons" don't you think? Both types of weapons give possibility to rapid fire. In the first type you just keep the trigger down and the gun rattles, in the latter you have to press the trigger evey time you want to fire. Modern assault riffles have both modes because they have different uses.


Regards,

Jari

PS. With personal hand weapons I mean the personal weapons of the soldier. Machine gun and sub machine gun are usually categorised as the weapon of the "group" not as personal weapons. This regardless of the fact that one of the individuals is the gunner. Usually the gunners personla weapon is a pistol. This practise in my understanding is meant to make it clear that if the gunner is out of the game, the next guy takes the sub machine gun or machine gun.

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Post by Aleksei22 » 19 Aug 2004 13:40

JariL wrote:Alexei22,

Teh link was to a copy of the original order of the day. I don't think that he signed the order personally before it was published.


.
What you have to say, JaryL ?????


Do you mean, that Mannerheim preffered to offer ORAL ORDERS instead of WRITTEN and SIGNED ?????

Like Hitler ???? ( as jews states as a "proven fact" ).



JariL wrote:Alexei22,

But he did not deny writing it later on so signature does not have any relevance in that respect.

.

Sorry, I dont think so, quite opposite/

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Post by Tiwaz » 19 Aug 2004 13:43

Aleksei22 wrote:
JariL wrote:Alexei22,

Teh link was to a copy of the original order of the day. I don't think that he signed the order personally before it was published.


.
What you have to say, JaryL ?????


Do you mean, that Mannerheim preffered to offer ORAL ORDERS instead of WRITTEN and SIGNED ?????

Like Hitler ???? ( as jews states as a "proven fact" ).



JariL wrote:Alexei22,

But he did not deny writing it later on so signature does not have any relevance in that respect.

.

Sorry, I dont think so, quite opposite/
Really? Now how about tellin us WHY it is quite opposite?

Can we create Aleksei his own thread where he can post these wild claims of his without proof and uncourced quotes/attachements?

Little like Official Psycho Mike Thread?

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Post by Aleksei22 » 19 Aug 2004 13:51

Tiwaz,

Are you JariL ????

Thank you.

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Post by Sami_K » 19 Aug 2004 13:55

Aleksei22 wrote:
JariL wrote:Alexei22,

Teh link was to a copy of the original order of the day. I don't think that he signed the order personally before it was published.


.
What you have to say, JaryL ?????


Do you mean, that Mannerheim preffered to offer ORAL ORDERS instead of WRITTEN and SIGNED ?????

Like Hitler ???? ( as jews states as a "proven fact" ).
T-r-y-i-n-g___t-o___e-x-p-l-a-i-n___t-h-i-s___s-l-o-w-l-y :
The "orders of the day", were rarely signed by Mannerheim's handwriting (which is what Jari was referreing to) before going out to print. Look at these examples:
http://www.mannerheim.fi/pkaskyt/e_paiva.htm

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Tiwaz
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Post by Tiwaz » 19 Aug 2004 13:58

Aleksei22 wrote:Tiwaz,

Are you JariL ????

Thank you.
Do I not have same right to ask for proof when you make your claims as everyone else?

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Post by Marcus » 19 Aug 2004 16:33

Tiwaz wrote:Can we create Aleksei his own thread where he can post these wild claims of his without proof and uncourced quotes/attachements?
Little like Official Psycho Mike Thread?
No, this isn't the Lounge.

/Marcus

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Post by JariL » 20 Aug 2004 08:51

I don't see how lack of printed signature suddenly would turn something from written to oral. Perhaps you care to explain?

What I have seen none of the orders of the day were personally signed by Mannerheim in printed form. The signed approvals for publishing them can be found from the war archive, I believe. His signatures would be an issue if he had later on denied having anything to do with the orders -but he did not.

Mannerheims orders of the day during WWII were meant to raise the morale of the troops and the population. This was especailly so with the orders of the day given 14.3.1940, June 1941, 11.7.1941 and 16.6.1944.

The first tried to give hope to people in mourning after the Winter War, the two next to raise the fighting spirit before the attack and the last to cast some resolve into the army that was reeling back under the pressure of the Soviet attack.

BTW, in 1918 the orders of the day were more informative and contained info for eample about nominations of staff members.

Oral orders were often given by Mannerheim when there was a crisis situation in the front. For example the order to withdraw to VT line in 1944 was given over phone. Just as the order to withdraw to the VKT line. There was no time for the red tape.

Jari

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Post by Aleksei22 » 20 Aug 2004 12:13

JariL wrote: What I have seen none of the orders of the day were personally signed by Mannerheim in printed form.
no problems, publish "handwritten" order with sign.

JariL wrote: The signed approvals for publishing them can be found from the war archive, I believe.
do you ????

JariL wrote:
His signatures would be an issue if he had later on denied having anything to do with the orders -but he did not.
Do you mean the same right to Hitler too ????



JariL wrote: Oral orders were often given by Mannerheim when there was a crisis situation in the front. For example the order to withdraw to VT line in 1944 was given over phone. Just as the order to withdraw to the VKT line. There was no time for the red tape.

Jari
Sorry, Jari

it means nothing, because after "oral" ordering - all of this staff must be written and signed.

Thank you.

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Post by Sami_K » 20 Aug 2004 12:50

Aleksei22 wrote:
JariL wrote: What I have seen none of the orders of the day were personally signed by Mannerheim in printed form.
no problems, publish "handwritten" order with sign.
For all those, who DO understand english...

In general (or always AFAIK) Mannerheim DID NOT personally write the "order of the day"s (at least in the 1939-1945 timeframe).

After he approved it (ie. says "ok" to his adjutant or whoever presented the text), the text was then forwarded for printing. Hence "signed" (with Mannerheim's handwriting) Order of the Day's are pretty hard to come by, at least on the internet.

Or does it seem that someone believes the Order of the Day's were signed by Mannerheim first and then printed by xerox copiers in 1941? Does someone have a funny fixation on signatures?

Cheers,
Sami

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Post by JariL » 20 Aug 2004 13:10

Hi Alexei22,

You have still not explained what is your point considering the signatures in the orders od the day?

Regards,

Jari

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Post by Aleksei22 » 20 Aug 2004 14:06

JariL wrote:Hi Alexei22,

You have still not explained what is your point considering the signatures in the orders od the day?

Regards,

Jari
Hello, Jari


My answer is NON-SIGN ORDERS - are ANONIMUS - so its value - not bigger then list of paper, sorry.



An off-topic quote was removed. Moderator/Steen Ammentorp

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Post by Jari » 20 Aug 2004 14:30

Aleksei22 wrote:NON-SIGN ORDERS - are ANONIMUS
:roll: This is complete bollocks! If orders are published on newspaper frontpages with the name of the Commander in Chief, and this happens by the approval of the CinC, then the orders bloody well are not anonymous, regardless of whether the CinC at some stage has signed the paper with the orders or not.

You better present something in which Mannerheim himself testifies that he was never given a chance to audit the orders of the day published in his name. And that something also better be personally signed by Mannerheim himself! :P

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Post by Aleksei22 » 20 Aug 2004 16:17

Jari wrote:
Aleksei22 wrote:NON-SIGN ORDERS - are ANONIMUS
:roll: This is complete bollocks! If orders are published on newspaper frontpages with the name of the Commander in Chief, and this happens by the approval of the CinC, then the orders bloody well are not anonymous, regardless of whether the CinC at some stage has signed the paper with the orders or not.

You better present something in which Mannerheim himself testifies that he was never given a chance to audit the orders of the day published in his name. And that something also better be personally signed by Mannerheim himself! :P
Hello, Jari

Pls, look below. May be it will be usefull for you.

Thank you.


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