Mannerheims famous 1941 Order of the Day

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Hanski
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Post by Hanski » 20 Aug 2004 17:26

In the Finnish Military Archives, see http://www.sota-arkisto.fi/inet/englanti/index.html

There is according to a list of archived material

Ylipäällikön päiväkäskyt
T 23112 (1941-1944) Alkuperäiset
1941-1944, T 23112/12-13


- it says the Orders of the Day of the Supreme Commander, then locates where in the archives the originals are kept.

Who knows if the originals were personally signed by Mannerheim, some of them probably also by his Chief of Staff, but this was obviously no practical problem during war time, as there were other means of authenticating where these orders came from. Like it has already been mentioned, it has been unheard of that any of Mannerheim's Orders of the Day would ever have been published without his approval, were they bearing his signature or not.

Who knows if the Finnish Army and the U.S. Army had differing practices in this respect.

If this detail on whether a personal signature was used or not is crucially important to you, maybe you can find it out from some professional historian.

But what does this have to do with the topic of this thread,
"Most Russians were armed with rifles" ??

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Post by Aleksei22 » 20 Aug 2004 18:28

Hanski wrote:In the Finnish Military Archives, see http://www.sota-arkisto.fi/inet/englanti/index.html

There is according to a list of archived material

Ylipäällikön päiväkäskyt
T 23112 (1941-1944) Alkuperäiset
1941-1944, T 23112/12-13
- it says the Orders of the Day of the Supreme Commander, then locates where in the archives the originals are kept.
Sorry, Hanski your refference is unusable. Searching tool ( at http://www.sota-arkisto.fi/inet/englanti/index.html and herein )
is absent too.


Hanski wrote:


Who knows if the originals were personally signed by Mannerheim, some of them probably also by his Chief of Staff, but this was obviously no practical problem during war time, as there were other means of authenticating where these orders came from.
Sorry, its not true.

Hanski wrote:

Like it has already been mentioned, it has been unheard of that any of Mannerheim's Orders of the Day would ever have been published without his approval, were they bearing his signature or not.


It means NOTING, because this "approval" didnt states that he did signed it at all !!!!





Hanski wrote:

Who knows if the Finnish Army and the U.S. Army had differing practices in this respect.
How about German Army ????

Hanski wrote:
If this detail on whether a personal signature was used or not is crucially important to you, maybe you can find it out from some professional historian.

Hmmmm, dear Hanski, so called "professional historian" - are 100% polityically-motivated governmental servants. Do you know this ????

Hanski wrote:

But what does this have to do with the topic of this thread,
"Most Russians were armed with rifles" ??

Dear Hanski, are you want riffles ????

Pls, take them ( from 1944 )


Thank you.


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Hanski
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Post by Hanski » 20 Aug 2004 19:14

Ooops!

(When I posted above, this thread was still titled "Most Russians were armed with rifles".)

I acknowledge the website of the Finnish Military Archives is far from advanced, it only lists which documents are kept there but has no other information on them available on the net. But, basically, the originals do exist and they are preserved safely for researchers.

Now, I actually do understand your demand on proving authenticity by personal signatures, but if that was simply not the practice followed by the Finnish Supreme HQ at the time (which I do not know for sure), there is nothing that can be done about now it but accept that. Of course, you can disbelieve all of them if you like.

My best guess is that if anyone had published and distributed a non-authentic Order of the Day bearing the name of Supreme HQ on top and Mannerheim's name on bottom, that would have been treated legally as a most serious criminal offence, and this deterrent was sufficient to scare anyone from trying it.

About professional historians, I do not share your pessimistic view. In the scientific community, research results must stand the critique of other independent researchers, and being a "government servant" instead of an objective scientist genuinely seeking for the truth will be revealed and published without mercy (at least that is what is strived at).

Cheers,
Hanski

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Post by Aleksei22 » 20 Aug 2004 19:23

Hanski wrote:
My best guess is that if anyone had published and distributed a non-authentic Order of the Day bearing the name of Supreme HQ on top and Mannerheim's name on bottom, that would have been treated legally as a most serious criminal offence, and this deterrent was sufficient to scare anyone from trying it.


Cheers,
Hanski


It means NOTING, because this " legall prosecution " ( without publishing authentic copy or original ) didnt states that he ( Mannerheim ) did signed it at all !!!!

Thank you.

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Post by Harri » 20 Aug 2004 19:51

Aleksei22 wrote:It means NOTING, because this " legall prosecution " ( without publishing authentic copy or original ) didnt states that he ( Mannerheim ) did signed it at all !!!!
Why does this bother you? :lol:

All Mannerheim's orders of the day were published for the Finns, not for Soviets. They were "legal" in Finland, not in USSR. If we Finns know which are Mannerheim's ones and say they are genuine, then that would be enough for the others too. Or the one who claims something else should show us something which would prove also this statement. So far we have not seen many "authentic proves" from Aleksei22 neither, just odd claims.

As far as I know Mannerheim signed the original piece or the proposal but I don't know if these are stored in Finnish Military Archive. Probably they are. Anyway no-one can see from the Intermet photo if the signature is real or printed, isn't? BTW I have a few papers (with granted medals) from my grandfather and these have Mannerheim's "genuine" signature (unfortunately printed after his death :lol:). Do you really believe that Mannerheim would have signed personally all these papers? :roll:

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Post by Hanski » 20 Aug 2004 19:53

Aleksei, I am afraid here you misunderstand how things are organized and run in the Finnish Defence Forces and legal system in general.

Now, let us assume Marshal Mannerheim decides to issue an Order of the Day to boost morale, say, for example this "sword scabbard" Order. As the Supreme Commander, he has better things to do than sit long hours at his desk editing the words of the Finnish language (which he did not master fully, since Swedish was his native language). He may give his guidelines and order his adjutants or any suitable staff officers to write drafts, whcih are then presented to him and corrected as needed, until the result is what he wants to say and how he wants to say it. Before it is made public, he may still seek advice and ask the opinion of his trusted ones, whether military or civilian.

I agree, it does make it undisputably clear if he then personally signes the final draft -- and I don't know, maybe he actually did it, to prove taking personal responsibility of his order and to leave a paper trail for future needs.

Then his order must be distributed in print. He cannot personally sign all the thousands of printed copies, so the printing press either uses a facsimile of his signature, or simply prints his name under the text. These are the type of copies that we have seen in the links here, without his personal signature.

Now, let us assume some individual wants to fake a Supreme Commanders Order of the Day. Yes, if he has access to a printing press, he might try it. What does he gain by it, what does he want to say while faking Mannerheim? In wartime conditions it would have been most likely he would get caught. Then he would be court martialed or tried in a civilian court of law for treason perhaps, and the conclusive evidence of having distributed falsified material would in all likelihood be sufficient for the court of law, and the perpetrator would get convicted and lose his respect for the rest of his life.

As far as I know, nobody ever tried to forge any of Mannerheim's Orders of the Day in spite of that personal signature did not appear in all of them.

On the other had, for very important ceremonial use, like the Order of the Day awarding the Cross of Liberty for the Finnish mothers (presented in frames in most churches to this day), his printed signature appears "in handwriting".

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Post by Aleksei22 » 20 Aug 2004 20:10

Harri wrote:
All Mannerheim's orders of the day were published for the Finns, not for Soviets. They were "legal" in Finland, not in USSR. If we Finns know which are Mannerheim's ones and say they are genuine, then that would be enough for the others too.

Oh, ..... those cool Finns.....

"peoples with God's ambrella"

I had head a lot of times this phoney-IMPERATIVES from someones too ....


Sorry, Harri, but God - is nonsence, ambrella ( as a result ) - same one too.

Thank you.

Sorry for offtopic ( a bit ).

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Post by Harri » 20 Aug 2004 20:13

Hanski wrote:He may give his guidelines and order his adjutants or any suitable staff officers to write drafts, whcih are then presented to him and corrected as needed, until the result is what he wants to say and how he wants to say it. Before it is made public, he may still seek advice and ask the opinion of his trusted ones, whether military or civilian.
As far as I know Mannerheim's WW II orders of the day were mainly drafted by Lt.Gen. W. E. Tuompo or Gen. E. Heinrichs. Like I have somewhere quoted from Tuompo's published diaries Tuompo showed two proposals of this order of the day in question to Mannerheim. Mannerheim approved another one without doing any changes. I have seen such proposal in some books and they have been full of Mannerheim's personally written corrections and remarks: in Finnish!

Actually Mannerheim's Finnish was rather good, much improved from the year 1918) and much better tha usually thought. The only official language of Finnish Supreme HQ was Finnish. Actually it was Mannerheim's personal demand that all should speak Finnish to him. He spoke Swedish only with his certain close friends.

----

Either Mannerheim's memoirs were either written by him alone. Known ghost writers were at least Col. Aladar Paasonen and Gen. Erik Heinrichs. They made most of the actual work. Mannerheim of course made lots of work for his memoirs and accepted the results. That's not quite unusual way to "write" memoirs.

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Post by Hanski » 20 Aug 2004 20:13

This is the framed Order of the Day for the Liberty Cross to the Finnish mothers, here in simple frames. More commonly it is seen in more ornamental frames of a different shape.

See the "signature". If it lacks from some other order, it may still be issued by Mannerheim.
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Post by Aleksei22 » 20 Aug 2004 20:19

Hanski wrote:This is the framed Order of the Day for the Liberty Cross to the Finnish mothers, here in simple frames. More commonly it is seen in more ornamental frames of a different shape.

See the "signature". If it lacks from some other order, it may still be issued by Mannerheim.
Hello, Hanski

When this Order of the Day for the Liberty Cross to the Finnish mothers was issued by him ? 01may 1942 ?

Thank you.

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Post by Harri » 20 Aug 2004 20:28

It was issued in Mother's Day on 10.5.1942.

The idea for such a decoration was based on the idea given by a Finnish soldier who wrote personally to Mannerheim and proposed that a Cross of Liberty should be awarded for all Finnish mothers.

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Post by Hanski » 20 Aug 2004 20:31

The Order of the Day for the Liberty Cross to the Finnish mothers was issued on 10 May 1942.

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Post by Aleksei22 » 20 Aug 2004 20:35

Hanski wrote:The Order of the Day for the Liberty Cross to the Finnish mothers was issued on 10 May 1942.
Hanski, - tooooo late from june 1941, sorry

see you next week.


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Post by David C. Clarke » 20 Aug 2004 20:37

Like Hitler ???? ( as jews states as a "proven fact" ).
Oh, ..... those cool Finns.....

"peoples with God's ambrella"

I had head a lot of times this phoney-IMPERATIVES from someones too ....
Alexsei22, knock it off!!!
These were totally unecessary lines that undoubtedly offended folks on this board.

Keep it up and I will develop an interest in you.

Cheers,
~D, the EviL Commissar

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Post by Harri » 20 Aug 2004 20:53

David C. Clarke wrote:Alexsei22, knock it off!!!
These were totally unecessary lines that undoubtedly offended folks on this board.
Keep it up and I will develop an interest in you.
Don't bother David. We Finns have used to that. It's so typical it just makes us laugh. :lol:

----

We warned on "that" already weeks ago. But it is good that something will finally happen. "A troll is a troll if fried on a pan." :wink:

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