Dear all,
Would anybody have (or know where to get) the full text of the document prepared in Kremlin for Finnish unconditional surrender that never happened after all. The document is apparently dated 28.6.1944. It seems it was fully prepared and had something like 56 articles. Thats supposedly the document that Finns would've had to sign had we not managed to stop the Red Army advances.
There's a quote of a part of this document in Panssari magazine 3/2004 page 25. Its included in a speech held by Colonel Sampo Ahto on 28.6.2004.
In that quote from that particular document, there are few key issues mentioned. Finns admitting total defeat in war and surrendering unconditionally all land, air and sea forces. Red Army will occupy all harbours, Aland islands and islands in the gulf of Finland, and all other areas of Finland if it so chooses. All radio broadcasts are forbidden, and all radio, telephone, and cabling communications to foreign lands from Finland are cut. Imprisonment of Civil guard members, and as a guarantee of war reparations to allies Soviet high command takes controll of all gold deposits, foreign currency and all other valueables of Finnish Bank and other banks.
After reading all that, it sure made me glad that Finland didn't have to surrender like that. I would be interested to read the whole document, if its available and published. I guess, it exists since its used in a speech like that.
Regards,
-Pete
The document prepared for Finnish unconditional surrender?
Re: The document prepared for Finnish unconditional surrende
Panssari "magazine" sounds like some official / semi-official publication, and on any level here in Finland people dont lie all that much (nature of the people is such in general..), and the man "using" this supposed document is a colonel so i think that there must be the document somewhere around..Mek wrote:There's a quote of a part of this document in Panssari magazine 3/2004 page 25. Its included in a speech held by Colonel Sampo Ahto on 28.6.2004.
as you Bair might know we have a saying here in Finland.. "officer and gentleman"..
and to my knowledge gentlemen dont lie.
http://www.panssarikilta.fi/lehti/
Since Kalevala there hasnt been many of those around, belive when i tell you: we finns like the truth and reality better.Bair wrote:Finnish myth
and anyways the reality of our relationship with USSR is more wonderful than any "myth" or "story" could ever be, so why bother to make something up as you wont be able to "better" the reality..
Oh and, sorry for the outburst, ill now just sit back and wait till somebody produces this document here for all of us to read.. that should be interesting.
Regards
Juha
Yep, it might be a myth... but IIRC there was a long article in the Helsingin Sanomat sometime between 3-5.9. 2004 written by Max Jacobsson. He repeated that myth in it. Basically he stated the same story what Mek wrote. I´m certain that some Finn in this forum has read it also beside me. It should be easy to find if you visit library in near future.Bair wrote:
I hear about such document for the first time - are you sure that it is completely authentic?I doubt anyone could get such a document from Russian archives even these days. it sounds like yet another Finnish myth to me, to be honest.
Best regards,
Rauli
And if you want know how myths in Finland (in this case the Finns killing Soviets only with knives) are born, just read a caption from P.W Stahl´s book. You might guess the answer but let us hint that a certain liquid compound is involved.
I am aware of that. I also realize that if Finnish Army did not hold back the Soviet forces on the Isthmus, the fate of Finland could be worse than what Mek described in the "document". I know that "I never heard of it" does not mean that "it does not exist".Panssari "magazine" sounds like some official / semi-official publication, and on any level here in Finland people dont lie all that much (nature of the people is such in general..), and the man "using" this supposed document is a colonel so i think that there must be the document somewhere around..
as you Bair might know we have a saying here in Finland.. "officer and gentleman"..
and to my knowledge gentlemen dont lie.
My point is that I never saw such document published anywhere and I think that a) it would still be classified in the Russian archives b) if it were not classified then no Russian researcher would dare to publish it - he would be kicked out of that archive immediately, and most researchers have long-range plans
I would like to see the document myself. I heard from several researchers that they found interesting information about WWII in the Russian archives but would only publish it in 30-40 years, as now they would be kicked out. This information concerns some unpleasant experiences for the Red Army and complete failures.
With best regards,
Bair
Hello Bair!Bair wrote:Dear Pete,
I hear about such document for the first time - are you sure that it is completely authentic?
with best regards,
Bair
Dosentti Kimmo Rentola has been investigating the issue for a long time, and AFAIK indeed such document(s?) have been found.
IIRC, Rentola found out (from Soviet sources) that Stalin dropped the unconditional surrender after learning about Ilomantsi, which would mean that the relatively small battle might after all deserve the (perhaps excessive) credit given to it in the recent years.
Be sure not to miss the meeting on October 27th, Rentola will be there giving a presentation of Finland's "Road to Peace".
Cheers,
Sami
Hey guys, and thanks for the replies
I didn't know (if) such document exists (or existed) or not, or if its even authentic. First time I also read about such a document was in that written speech. The quote from that document(?) seemed interesting, so I figured to post here in case somebody might know if it really exists, and maybe know more about it, and maybe knows where could I get it to read full text of it.
Will Dosentti Rentola be lecturing somewhere?
Regards,
-Pete
I didn't know (if) such document exists (or existed) or not, or if its even authentic. First time I also read about such a document was in that written speech. The quote from that document(?) seemed interesting, so I figured to post here in case somebody might know if it really exists, and maybe know more about it, and maybe knows where could I get it to read full text of it.
Will Dosentti Rentola be lecturing somewhere?
Regards,
-Pete
Of course, I haven't seen the document or even a translation of it, thus my little information about it is just from conversations. I heard that Rentola has actually published "an interesting article", but no-one seems to know 'where' (ie. what magazine/journal/book etc.) it was published...Mek wrote:The quote from that document(?) seemed interesting, so I figured to post here in case somebody might know if it really exists, and maybe know more about it, and maybe knows where could I get it to read full text of it.
I hope I know more after a little over a month.
Cheers,
Sami
The actual document was not shown to Finns at the time. Finnish government asked for the Soviet peace terms in June 16 (?) and as an answer rceived the demand for unconditional surrender. What comes to Finnish troops morale the Soviet demand put the back bone back into the troops. Very few soldiers had illusions about the meaning of unconditional surrender.
It should also be remembered that the peace terms that were shown to Finns in April 1944 contained only half what the Soveits were going to put on the table had Finns agreed to negotiate then. The unpublished paragraphs would have given Soviet Union total control of the Finnish economy and political system. In the autumn the additional clauses were dropped alltogether and Finns were let to handle their own affairs more or less as they saw fit.
Best regards,
Jari
PS. bair, I would recommen reading Tiihonen's book "Karjalan Kannaksen suurtaistelut" and especially checking the references he mentions. I think part of them belong to the group of unavailable documents today. The text of the book is not especailly fluent or logical but there is some interesting information in it.
It should also be remembered that the peace terms that were shown to Finns in April 1944 contained only half what the Soveits were going to put on the table had Finns agreed to negotiate then. The unpublished paragraphs would have given Soviet Union total control of the Finnish economy and political system. In the autumn the additional clauses were dropped alltogether and Finns were let to handle their own affairs more or less as they saw fit.
Best regards,
Jari
PS. bair, I would recommen reading Tiihonen's book "Karjalan Kannaksen suurtaistelut" and especially checking the references he mentions. I think part of them belong to the group of unavailable documents today. The text of the book is not especailly fluent or logical but there is some interesting information in it.
Hi all,
While browsing the net, I came across the article written by Max Jakobson for Helsingin Sanomat, September 3rd of 2004. Its in english.
http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/ ... SAID=28271
There are few mentions of some older drafts of treaties which Stalin had eventually ignored/rejected. But I didn't notice a mention of that particular draft treaty, that I read in the speech by Colonel Ahto. Anyway, very good article, well worth reading.
Regards,
-Pete
While browsing the net, I came across the article written by Max Jakobson for Helsingin Sanomat, September 3rd of 2004. Its in english.
http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/ ... SAID=28271
There are few mentions of some older drafts of treaties which Stalin had eventually ignored/rejected. But I didn't notice a mention of that particular draft treaty, that I read in the speech by Colonel Ahto. Anyway, very good article, well worth reading.
Regards,
-Pete
