The document prepared for Finnish unconditional surrender?

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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Sami_K
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#46

Post by Sami_K » 28 Oct 2004, 08:15

Juha Tompuri wrote: ...to try again to continue... ?

Regards, Juha
Ah, yes. "Renew" the offensive is perhaps a better word.

By no means was it to be as massive as the June 1944 offensive was, but still they would've tried. Of course, considering the state of the units it could've been fruitless but that's not the issue here... the issue is that they had orders to be ready for a new attempt if 'an opportunity arises' ie. a "precondition" was met.

As far as I've understood it, the "chain of preconditions" were:
Had Ilomantsi succeeded -> the troops North of Ladoga would've launched a new attempt. Had the operation North of Ladoga succeeded -> the troops in the Isthmus would've launched a new attempt.

Cheers,
Sami

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Jari
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#47

Post by Jari » 28 Oct 2004, 11:04

I would guess that if a new offensive had taken place, it wouldn't have been possible until midwinter. Firstly, Red Army would have aimed at an offensive with which to grasp the initiative like in June '44, and preparing and planning for such takes time. Secondly, Vuoksi would be frozen. Thirdly, roads would be frozen as well (instead of turning into mud puddle as soon as a truck convoy or a 30-ton tank drives on it).


Sami_K
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#48

Post by Sami_K » 28 Oct 2004, 11:17

Jari wrote:I would guess that if a new offensive had taken place, it wouldn't have been possible until midwinter. Firstly, Red Army would have aimed at an offensive with which to grasp the initiative like in June '44, and preparing and planning for such takes time. Secondly, Vuoksi would be frozen. Thirdly, roads would be frozen as well (instead of turning into mud puddle as soon as a truck convoy or a 30-ton tank drives on it).
If I've understood correctly, the soon-to-be published full version (DVD-ROM) of Suomen Sodat 1941-1944 should have something about this (of Kilin's research). So lets wait a few weeks and we'll know more.
:)

Cheers,
Sami

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Keke
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#49

Post by Keke » 28 Oct 2004, 14:45

So this is the sub-forum where Finns talk English to each other?

Just kidding (or am I?). Anyhow, great info on this thread, thank you very much gentlemen!

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Hanski
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#50

Post by Hanski » 28 Oct 2004, 17:14

Sami_K wrote: If I've understood correctly, the soon-to-be published full version (DVD-ROM) of Suomen Sodat 1941-1944 should have something about this (of Kilin's research). So lets wait a few weeks and we'll know more.
Sami, the waiting is over!

The DVD was published today, sold in Helsinki exclusively at the Suomalainen kirjakauppa bookstore for € 39.90. I just can't wait to get immersed in it for the rest of this evening!

Keke, that's how it goes -- we always get remarks from the moderators otherwise! Welcome to the Forum!

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Keke
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#51

Post by Keke » 28 Oct 2004, 17:24

Hanski wrote: The DVD was published today, sold in Helsinki exclusively at the Suomalainen kirjakauppa bookstore for € 39.90. I just can't wait to get immersed in it for the rest of this evening!
Could you please give us some sort of short review? Personally I'd be interested in quality of the virtual bits (I believe they used Flashpoint's game engine).
Hanski wrote:Keke, that's how it goes -- we always get remarks from the moderators otherwise! Welcome to the Forum!
Thanks for the welcome! To use English serves an educational purpose of course. I'm often amazed how little people outside Scandinavia know about the Continuation War, when the Winter War is quite well "popularized".

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Hanski
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#52

Post by Hanski » 28 Oct 2004, 20:39

The DVD "Suomen sodat -- kesän 1944 torjuntataistelut" (= Finland's Wars -- the defensive battles of summer 1944) is basically a quick way to get an overview of the most important operations all through the retreat phase of the Continuation War since June 1944. The viewer can either see through the entire DVD-video at one go, or there is the option of slight interactiveness, by choosing any one battle of the nine at a time in any order (Valkeasaari, Siiranmäki, Kuuterselkä, Tienhaara, Viipurinlahti, Tali-Ihantala, Vuosalmi, Nietjärvi, Ilomantsi).

The voice narrative in Finnish describes the sequence of events and provides the background information, while on your screen you see clips of relevant authentic wartime documentaries (probably mostly already familiar to Finnish vierwers), photographs, map animations, virtual computer game -like bits with a 3D- illusion as the "camera" moves over battelfields, and interviews of aged eyewitness front line veterans of the battles, including a couple of Soviet veterans. There is really nothing such technically innovative that we would never have seen it previously on TV documentaries. Technically, there were a couple of slight symptoms of jamming of the video image.

The facts are of course based on research, but no references to sources are mentioned in context, so whether for example Kilin's research is integrated, the viewer cannot tell. The operative decisions are described mainly from the Finnish viewpoint.

Of course, there is the phenomenon of "appetite increasing while you eat" - the information could of course always be more detailed and more extensive - like I would have wanted more on the share of the air forces - but overall it is a fair compromise.

The "computer game" animations look just like that -- simplistic, diagrammatic rather than visually spectacular and realistic -- but they do serve a role in adding bits and pieces that do not exist on films.

Of course, if you want detailed facts as tables and statistics, or special topics, established history books will definitely give you more. If you want to grasp the psychological atmosphere, read Linna's Unknown soldier or watch it in Edvin Laine's movie! But as mentioned, this DVD is a more convenient and visual way of getting a quick overview on the course of events, which would take hours of reading and figuring out, or plenty of video cassette winding / rewinding on other media.

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#53

Post by Sami_K » 28 Oct 2004, 22:26

Hanski wrote:
Sami_K wrote: If I've understood correctly, the soon-to-be published full version (DVD-ROM) of Suomen Sodat 1941-1944 should have something about this (of Kilin's research). So lets wait a few weeks and we'll know more.
Sami, the waiting is over!

The DVD was published today, sold in Helsinki exclusively at the Suomalainen kirjakauppa bookstore for € 39.90. I just can't wait to get immersed in it for the rest of this evening!

Keke, that's how it goes -- we always get remarks from the moderators otherwise! Welcome to the Forum!
Hold your horses!!!!!


KAKSI TUOTETTA

"Suomen sodat – jatkosota multimedia koostuu kahdesta tuotteesta: DVD-rom levystä ja sisällöltään suppeammasta DVD-videolevystä. Tietokoneella katsottava DVD-rom levy on laaja yleisesitys koko jatkosodasta. DVD-soittimen avulla television kuvaruudulta katsottavalla DVD-videolevylla kerrotaan kesän 1944 ratkaisutaisteluista.

http://www.suomensodat.com/ajankohtaista.php

The DVD-video is out, BUT IT IS NOT THE FULL VERSION!!!!
Save your money for the full version, it has also the videos of the "lesser" version.

Cheers,
Sami


Edit: Hanski, the details etc. are in the DVD-Rom version, which is at the moment in production and out in a few weeks/months(???).

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Keke
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#54

Post by Keke » 28 Oct 2004, 23:08

Thanks for the info again, gentlemen. It seems that one has to wait for the full version.

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Hanski
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#55

Post by Hanski » 29 Oct 2004, 05:59

Sami_K wrote:KAKSI TUOTETTA

"Suomen sodat – jatkosota multimedia koostuu kahdesta tuotteesta: DVD-rom levystä ja sisällöltään suppeammasta DVD-videolevystä. Tietokoneella katsottava DVD-rom levy on laaja yleisesitys koko jatkosodasta. DVD-soittimen avulla television kuvaruudulta katsottavalla DVD-videolevylla kerrotaan kesän 1944 ratkaisutaisteluista.

http://www.suomensodat.com/ajankohtaista.php

The DVD-video is out, BUT IT IS NOT THE FULL VERSION!!!!
Save your money for the full version, it has also the videos of the "lesser" version.

Edit: Hanski, the details etc. are in the DVD-Rom version, which is at the moment in production and out in a few weeks/months(???).
O.K., so this is the explanation! At the counter of the bookstore, they did have advertisements with two different prices, but the only product available was this DVD-video of € 39.90, and the staff there did not really know the details. I guess I will need to go back and re-negotiate the deal.

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Hanski
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#56

Post by Hanski » 30 Oct 2004, 15:31

So, today I went back to Suomalainen kirjakauppa and managed to change the DVD-video to the Jatkosota 1941-44 DVD-ROM by paying the € 10 difference in price.

It is truly available now, so you can let your horses go!


As I thus inadvertently came to compare these two products, I must say there is a great difference and the DVD-ROM is definitely worth paying the € 49.90, you will get value for money for the ten more euros!

However, the DVD-ROM has higher performance demands on your hardware. Mine is quite modest (I use a Fujitsu-Siemens Lifebook E laptop that I bought over 3 years ago, with a DVD drive), and in the software installation process the warning duly appeared that my hardware does not meet the demands, which may result in not all features working.

The installation nevertheless succeeded, and everything else works, except the 3D-animations cause an error and necessitate ending the program.

But indeed, this is a totally different product, which might be called a multimedia history book, produced with a very advanced interactive user interface and good visual layout.

I have only had time for a quick overview by now, but there are similar video clips available as in the DVD-video, plus encyclopedia-like databases on remarkable persons, weapons etc, with photographs and plenty of technical details. I am still in the process of browsing it through. The animated maps are more detailed and better in quality, and the user can choose under various titles hierarchically between general overviews or more detailed subtitles. Of course, it will take until my next hardware upgrade before I am able to fully utilize all the features.

Highly recommended, but do read carefully the printed hardware requirements before your purchase.

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#57

Post by Sami_K » 30 Oct 2004, 16:49

Hanski,
Good to hear that they agreed to change it.
Hanski wrote: It is truly available now, so you can let your horses go!
:) Excellent!!! ...a visit to the store on Monday then..

Hanski wrote:
But indeed, this is a totally different product, which might be called a multimedia history book...
And (don't know if you can browse the authors or not) Juri Kilin was involved in the project, digging Russian archives for information on the "Soviet side of things" (so it isn't just repetition of old findings).

Cheers,
Sami

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#58

Post by Mek » 30 Oct 2004, 20:19

Hi,

It was very interesting to read about Rentola's lecture on Finlands road to peace. I got the impression that Stalin was fed misinformation on situation in Finland more than once, both in Winter War and Continuation war. The full draft document on Finnish unconditional surrender is very interesting to read, many big thanks for the translation also. It was surprising that it was already prepared earlier than 1944, I thought by the articles I had read that it was completed in summer of 1944.

I read that in summer of 1944 Kollontai took the responsibility (or was made a patsy) for that demand of unconditional surrender by saying that it was her "misunderstanding" that she gave that reply/information to Finns.

About Battle of Ilomantsi, there is a rather interesting description of battle of Ilomantsi according to Russian archives at:

http://www.joensuu.fi/mekri/sotahistoria/kilin.htm

Apparently it is based on Juri Kilins research. But once again to my disappointment that page is written in Finnish only.

About those Suomen Sodat DVD's, is it possible to browse them in English also? I ordered mine through the net, I don't live very close to a Suomalainen kirjakauppa.

Regards,
-Pete

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Hanski
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#59

Post by Hanski » 30 Oct 2004, 21:25

Hi Pete,
Mek wrote: I read that in summer of 1944 Kollontai took the responsibility (or was made a patsy) for that demand of unconditional surrender by saying that it was her "misunderstanding" that she gave that reply/information to Finns.
I remeber docent Rentola having said that Stockholm in 1944 was a nest of rumours, and the belief spread "the new Cabinet in Helsinki wants peace!". This generated diplomatic reports, which were supported by exaggerated reports by Soviet agents in Finland. The fresh DVD-ROM that I have at hand says: "after the fall of Viipuri, the Finnish Cabinet inquired for peace terms from the Soviet Union. The demand was an unconditional surrender". Mme Kollontai obviously played a role in relaying the information both ways via Stockholm.

Thank you for the excellent link above, now there really seems to be a wealth of information on the battle of Ilomantsi and other relevant issues (there even seem to be some texts in English and Russian under the buttons on the left at http://www.joensuu.fi/mekri/sotahistoria/index.htm ).

Juri Kilin is mentioned as one of the authors of the DVD-ROM. The narrative voice and all texts in it are in Finnish only. All encyclopedia texts are written by well-known Finnish war historians.

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patrik.possi
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#60

Post by patrik.possi » 09 Jul 2007, 10:55

This document is quite esentially to show what the 1944 Soviet offensive was about. I have reed vauge references to it. And was suprised that it was there for the one who wanted to see it.

I have the fealing that in the way the westernworld have any intresst in this conflict the comfortble take the Soviet view that the goal was just to take the 1940 borders.

In Sweden where ill live in, the clown Henrik Anstad (The man who made showcases of suposed finnish waratrocities) have reacently called the battle of Ihantala-Tali a finnish "myth" and i quote him "If Soviet wanted to take Finland 1944 they could have done so".

We at this forum can laugh at his ignorence, but as a journalist with a quit extensive network this man can easilly get his own myth spread like a wildfire.

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