Rumour about mass graves in Lappeenranta

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palmu
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#46

Post by palmu » 18 Oct 2006, 12:18

Harri,

How do you know Russians knew about executions in June? I read something about it (Antti O. Arponen & Martti Meuronen book Teloitetut), but for me it was not a very trustful argument. I think it has been just a rumour.

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Harri
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#47

Post by Harri » 19 Oct 2006, 14:37

palmu wrote:Harri,
How do you know Russians knew about executions in June? I read something about it (Antti O. Arponen & Martti Meuronen book Teloitetut), but for me it was not a very trustful argument. I think it has been just a rumour.
I don't know anything more. It may be just a rumour but I think it is well enough known that Soviet Finnish language propagandist, the illfated "Tiltu" really warned deserters not to go to Lappeenranta because "death awaits there". According to Arponen many veterans knew about this Tiltu's warning but of course timing may well be July instead of June.

So, how could have Tiltu told something like that if Soviets hadn't known anything? This is more than a clear message. Claimed executions took place around between Midsummer and early July but Tiltu was a bit late if her warning came later than that.


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Eisenfaust
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#48

Post by Eisenfaust » 20 Oct 2006, 08:19

Today October 20th at 13:35 (UTC +2 hours) Finnish YLE2 channel re-runs the documentary about Huhtiniemi.

Huhu joukkohaudoista

Silminnäkijän raportti ”Huhu joukkohaudoista” on kaupunkitarina, joka on elänyt Lappeenrannassa 60 vuotta. Huhun mukaan kaupungissa toimi kesällä 1944 salainen kenttäoikeus, joka teloitti satoja suomalaisia rintamakarkureita.

- Väitetään, että teloitettujen ruumiita ei haudattu syvälle. Kesällä 1945 joukkohaudat alkoivat haista ja niitä jouduttiin kalkitsemaan, kertoo Karjala-lehden päätoimittaja Antti O. Arponen.

Puna-armeijan suurhyökkäyksen alettua ja Viipurin menetyksen jälkeen Kannaksella pidätettiin lähes 30 000 rintamakarkuria ja joukoistaan harhautunutta. Selustaan paenneista suuri osa päätyi Lappeenrantaan.

- Lappeenrantalaisilla on suunnattoman upea mielikuvitus, jos he ovat keksineet kaiken sen, minkä ovat kertoneet, naurahtaa kirjailija Heikki Hietamies, jonka vastailmestynyt kirja kertoo Huhtiniemen tapahtumista.

Tarinan mukaan kaupungissa teloitettiin päivittäin useita rintamakarkureita. Heidät haudattiin kuin koirat kunniattomiin joukkohautoihin Lappeenrannan länsipuolelle. Onko kyse jatkosodan tarkimmin varjellusta sotasalaisuudesta vai karjalaisten vilkkaasta mielikuvituksesta?

- Se on vahva huhu. Huhtiniemen teloituksista ei löydy yhtään asiakirjaa, väittää Sota-arkiston tutkija Seppo Klemettilä.

Toimittaja Juha Portaankorvan ohjaamassa Silminnäkijässä kuitenkin useat lappeenrantalaiset uskovat Huhtiniemen tapahtumiin. Lisäksi monet asiaa tutkineet ovat törmänneet outoihin löytöihin ja tapahtumiin.

- Näin Lappeenrannassa kaksi kuorma-autoa, joiden lavoilla oli suomalaisten sotilaiden ruumiita. Ne oli pinottu päällekkäin kasvot alaspäin. Myöhemmin kuulin, ettei kaatuneita kuljetettu sillä tavoin. Lisäksi Lappeenrannassa ei ollut kaatuneiden keräyspaikkaa, kertoo Osmo Silvas, joka oli evakuoimassa Lappeenrantaa kesällä 1944.

- Eräs herra näytti minulle salaisen kenttäoikeuden asiakirjoja. Ne olivat leimoilla varustettuja ja niissä oli rintamakarkureiden nimet ja syntymäajat. Se oli hirvittävä kokemus lukea ne paperit, muistelee Elli Matkonen.

- Nämä teloitukset ovat merkinneet eräille 60 vuoden yksinäisyyttä, toisille hirvittävän salaisuuden kantamista. Kaupunki etsii edelleen murhaajia, toteaa rovasti Matti J. Kuronen.
es. 14.10.2004


=E=

Janne
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#49

Post by Janne » 20 Oct 2006, 08:37

Why should the Soviet propagandists have *known* anything at all? For all of their purposes it sufficed to make an educated guess of what *might* be true or what *could* pass close enough to being true so that the propaganda would have the desired effect. Sometimes the guess went completely wrong and brought only amusement to the Finns, sometimes the guess hit closet to home. I'm pretty sure the Soviets didn't have agnets in any home area bedrooms, but that didn't stop Tiltu from telling the Finnsih soldiers what was happening between their wives and fiancees and German soldiers at home!

As far as I've gathered the Soviets' sources of information were (1) Finnish communists who'd managed to remain underground and agents who'd been parachuted into Finland and managed to avoid capture and (2) Finnish POWs. It isn't rather likely that any of these could've actually known anything, but for a communist agent it would be natural to assume that the Finns would begin to execute their own as soon as opportunity arose and Lappeenranta would've been a suitable location.

(The Soviets diod receive information via the Allies as well and the military intelligence at the US legation did find out a lot during the war, often simply because the Finns told them things, but I don't think this was a possible source in this case.)

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Harri
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#50

Post by Harri » 20 Oct 2006, 10:05

Janne wrote:Why should the Soviet propagandists have *known* anything at all? For all of their purposes it sufficed to make an educated guess of what *might* be true or what *could* pass close enough to being true so that the propaganda would have the desired effect. Sometimes the guess went completely wrong and brought only amusement to the Finns, sometimes the guess hit closet to home. I'm pretty sure the Soviets didn't have agnets in any home area bedrooms, but that didn't stop Tiltu from telling the Finnsih soldiers what was happening between their wives and fiancees and German soldiers at home!
We would get the answer only from Soviet archives, I guess.
Janne wrote:As far as I've gathered the Soviets' sources of information were (1) Finnish communists who'd managed to remain underground and agents who'd been parachuted into Finland and managed to avoid capture and (2) Finnish POWs. It isn't rather likely that any of these could've actually known anything, but for a communist agent it would be natural to assume that the Finns would begin to execute their own as soon as opportunity arose and Lappeenranta would've been a suitable location.
There is only one possible way: captured Finnish deserters who had been returned back to the front have told it to Soviets who in turn have used the rumour for their purposes. That happened quite often, Tiltu even mentioned unit names and individual soldiers and officers.
Janne wrote:(The Soviets diod receive information via the Allies as well and the military intelligence at the US legation did find out a lot during the war, often simply because the Finns told them things, but I don't think this was a possible source in this case.)
No, mostly the source country was Sweden through which some information passed.

----

Interesting detail was written about in local newspaper. There a man who as a child had lived near Huhtiniemi told that the whole area was covered with white calcium in spring 1945 and children were forbidden to go there "because there were buried bodies". That same was also told in the TV program which was broadcasted once again last evening. Some sort of smell probem is the only reason why calcium would have been needed.

But it is a very good question why the bodies would have been buried into so low graves? I think half or one meter is a bit too little for a human body. Unless the bodies were buried only temporarily?

It is a macabre thought that someone may have had a tent over some such mass grave because nowadays that place is the camping area. 8O

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#51

Post by Janne » 20 Oct 2006, 11:21

I didn't mention Sweden as a source because I understand that the Soviets got their information from Swedish newspapers (which wrote a lot that was true and a lot that wasn't) rather than from agent sources. (Surely you don't mean that Sweden traded intelligence material cocerning Finland with the Allies?)

Your theory about a deserter who's witnessed the executions in Lappeenranta or even heard the rumours there and then ended up as a POW and told his interrogators about it is of course as good as mine. However - and this is the thing that has puzzled me the most - is that such a soldier would presumably have told his story to the men in his platoon, but AFAIK there is no mention whatsoever in veteran's accounts that there was any knowledge or rumour amontg the frontline troops of such executions. (The executions that *are* mentioned and spoken about are of the kind "official history" knows of: individual cases at division level.)

Another thing is that the bodies of the officially excuted (or shot by their superior officer) soldiers were sent home just like those of the KIA. It isn't immediately obvious to me why the bodies of the allegedly executed deserters wouldn't have been treated in the same fashion; slipping them into the stream of coffins from the front should have kept the secret as well or better than burying them in shallow graves in town area.

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#52

Post by Tero » 20 Oct 2006, 11:28

Janne wrote:Why should the Soviet propagandists have *known* anything at all? For all of their purposes it sufficed to make an educated guess of what *might* be true or what *could* pass close enough to being true so that the propaganda would have the desired effect. Sometimes the guess went completely wrong and brought only amusement to the Finns, sometimes the guess hit closet to home. I'm pretty sure the Soviets didn't have agnets in any home area bedrooms, but that didn't stop Tiltu from telling the Finnsih soldiers what was happening between their wives and fiancees and German soldiers at home!

As far as I've gathered the Soviets' sources of information were (1) Finnish communists who'd managed to remain underground and agents who'd been parachuted into Finland and managed to avoid capture and (2) Finnish POWs. It isn't rather likely that any of these could've actually known anything, but for a communist agent it would be natural to assume that the Finns would begin to execute their own as soon as opportunity arose and Lappeenranta would've been a suitable location.

(The Soviets diod receive information via the Allies as well and the military intelligence at the US legation did find out a lot during the war, often simply because the Finns told them things, but I don't think this was a possible source in this case.)
Given the timeline of the attack and Tiltus remark I would not put it beyond Tiltu have alluded to the as yet insubstatiated Red Army plans to continue its advance towards Helsinki after Viipuri fell. AFAIK Lappeenranta was one of the king pins in the plans so to warn deserters to avoid the area is consistent with them. And wasn't Lappeeranta also bombed during the summer ?

In fact, any number of realistic scenarios are viable even without knowlegde of any secret executions. BTW: IMO the information of such executions would have had to come from radio listening and I doubt Finnish commanders would have broadcasted such stories over the radio, given the otherwise alledgedly strickt secrecy measures taken.

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#53

Post by palmu » 20 Oct 2006, 14:16

One interesting point from Arponen Meuronen book Teloitetut: Martti Meuronen interviewed 1988 Keijo Koistinen (man who collected Huhtiniemi stories) and he told that bodies were buried in 1944 without cloths.

At least that is correct also with skeletons found this week. They were also without cloths.

Another interesting thing is historian Markku Jokisipilä´s blog about Huhtiniemi. Jokisipilä says he has some kind of source (not 100 % trustfull) which tells that there was a secret meeting 23rd of June 1944 in Lappeenranta about executions. Generals Heinrichs, Svensson and Oesch were there, also Toivo Tapanainen.

Teloitetut book tells this Tapanainen court began their work around 22nd and 24th of June 1944. Those dates match with each other.

palmu
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#54

Post by palmu » 20 Oct 2006, 14:21

Jokisipilä´s blog: http://jokisipila.blogspot.com/

Uncle Joe
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#55

Post by Uncle Joe » 20 Oct 2006, 16:01

Comments on Jokisipilä´s late* PC tendencies can be found in Sotilasaikakauslehti´s review of "Aseveljet"/Alfthan.

*His Aseveljia vai liittolaisia was a very promising first effort, but later his work has become so correct that even Simon´s Extortion Centre would approve of it.

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#56

Post by Uncle Joe » 20 Oct 2006, 16:06

If these corpses can be proven to be the result of executions carried out in 1944, it is very encouraging to see further proof that cowardice under enemy fire doesn´t pay.

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Harri
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#57

Post by Harri » 20 Oct 2006, 16:33

Janne wrote:I didn't mention Sweden as a source because I understand that the Soviets got their information from Swedish newspapers (which wrote a lot that was true and a lot that wasn't) rather than from agent sources. (Surely you don't mean that Sweden traded intelligence material cocerning Finland with the Allies?)
I don't mean. Without doubt some information (also on Germans) from Finland passed through Sweden and Swedish.
Janne wrote:Your theory about a deserter who's witnessed the executions in Lappeenranta or even heard the rumours there and then ended up as a POW and told his interrogators about it is of course as good as mine. However - and this is the thing that has puzzled me the most - is that such a soldier would presumably have told his story to the men in his platoon, but AFAIK there is no mention whatsoever in veteran's accounts that there was any knowledge or rumour amontg the frontline troops of such executions. (The executions that *are* mentioned and spoken about are of the kind "official history" knows of: individual cases at division level.)
Hard to say. Even if the executions were not "known" the "secret field court" and the presence of MP units (the so called "fish trap") at Lappeenranta area were known among many veterans.
Janne wrote:Another thing is that the bodies of the officially excuted (or shot by their superior officer) soldiers were sent home just like those of the KIA. It isn't immediately obvious to me why the bodies of the allegedly executed deserters wouldn't have been treated in the same fashion; slipping them into the stream of coffins from the front should have kept the secret as well or better than burying them in shallow graves in town area.
I agree.

I have some more interesting information. It is written in local newspaper Etelä-Karjala [South Karelia] on 20.10. by Jouko Kuronen, retired Chief of Lappeenranta Airport, former Finnish Air Force pilot (after the war) and Chairman of the South-East Finland Aviation Museum Association.

Here are the main parts (translation mine):
German tankers might have been found at Huhtiniemi

During the major attack [of USSR] in June - July 1944 in the vicinity of Lappeenranta airfield a German armoured detachment which overhauled and repaired their equipment [means StuG.Brig.303] was located in the building of riding-school. Personnel of the repair shop was accommodated in the building of the Cadre NCO School in its highest floor on the side of the city.
For example pilots of the Flying Squadron 24 had lived there in the lower floors until mid June.
During those days the lucky pilots were accommodated to the officers' club and they followed daily Germans' doings in the riding school while going between the club and aircraft dugouts dag around the airfield.
The contemporary people have told that Lappeenranta airbase was attacked for example by bombing at low level during the last half of June. The attack direction was from the current Kesämäki school to the airfield towards the aircraft dugouts and Cadre NCO School.
...
Evidently already before 1st of July 1944, probably between 16. - 20.6. during the previously mentioned bombings an enemy bomb hit through the roof of the German quartering room "straight into the living-room" and about ten Germans died in the explosion. "Perhaps there were 11. We were lucky guys when we moved - we get out of there".
Germans often left their bodies to field cemeteries near the dying place, maybe also at Lappeenranta?
The burial of bodies may indicate the German accuracy and that they were buried honourable and according to rules.
Burial at low depth may tell about the temporary resting place. The deceased ones were supposed to be buried somewhere else later.
...
Right now the secret mass excutions seem unbelieveable. Close to the burial place where the bodies were found were for example the Command Centre for Air War on Karelian Isthmus, Air Surveillance Centre with Lotta personnel with the sound and visual air surveillance network, fighter dugouts with their personnel and barracks [of the Lappeenranta garrison] populated by large groups.
The area was supervised and guarded and there were troops all day and night. Why anyone didn't see or hear shots or cries when ears and eyes were present?
If someone heard or saw where the message lost? Hopefully we'll know soon.
The mentioned Cadre NCO School is at the place where the current National Defence College is:
http://www.mpkk.fi/en/

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#58

Post by Kimmo » 26 Oct 2006, 13:05

The radio news announced just few minutes ago, that a telegraph message has been found from Lappeenranta archives, where an order is given to execute those who have run away from the frontline.

I didn't hear the complete news clearly, as I was in the phone, so let's not jump to conclusions, but there should be some news coming today about this. So we'll lear more then.

Kimmo

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#59

Post by Kimmo » 26 Oct 2006, 13:30

Here's the news:

http://www.mtv3.fi/uutiset/txt/kotimaa. ... /10/479253

It wasn't actually that radical news, as it sounded from radio.

If someones has the time to translate it feel free to do it. I probably wont have the time to do it today.

Kimmo

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#60

Post by JariL » 26 Oct 2006, 14:53

Hi,

The telegram is only first part of the evidence. The second part is the war diary of the HQ of the IV Army where it is staed that on Jun 21, 1944 (day after the telegram was received) they had asked two times what the extreme measures are and received the answer that it means excecution.

These documents are not yet a proof that there was a secret court or that soldiers were shoot. But it does show that the general HQ was so concerned about the situation that it entitled and encouraged front line commanders to restore order by any means -including shooting those who refused to return to their units. This procedure was then confirmed with the instructions that were given in the beginning of June about the simplified court martial process (no possibility to complain about the verdict).

Regards,

Jari

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