Sweden could have stopped the war ?

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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John T
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Re: Re:

Post by John T » 13 Mar 2011 22:22

Seppo Jyrkinen wrote:
Darkwand wrote:...if sweden had said that it would support finland in a conflict with the USSR before the outbreak of war the stalin woulndn't have invaded ?
... on paper the Swedish armed forces where the largest and best equipped in Scandinavia...
Russia was a strong military power and Finland was nothing in the eyes of Stalin. And so was also Sweden. I think, in the end of 1939, those two small countries together had been a Double-nothing.
Sweden delivered half the German Iron ore between September 1939 and Early 1941.
And the German army counts higher than the combined Swedish-Finnish forces.
So at least the M-R Pact has to be renegotiated.
Seppo Jyrkinen wrote:
Sweden had a high quality machine-building industry and capacity to build up a strong army. Excellent "cannon industry". But Swedish Air Forces had older aircraft than FAF had (50 Gloster Gladiator vs 40 Fokker D21 and 40 Ju86 vs 18 Bristol Blenheim). Sweden was not a such military power which had been respected by Hitler and Stalin .
Swedish Air Force had seven operational squadrons, you forgot the obsolete Hart Dive bombers, but there where trained to operate as combat units. and new aircrafts where ordered in the US.
But both air forces where nothing that detered a major power.
I would say that Swedens strongest arm where the navy as the relative strenght was far closer to the German navy than any other arm.

Seppo Jyrkinen wrote: .... If Stalin had occupied Finland, Red Army troops had settled down just 150 km from Gällivare. Swedish iron ore was vital for Germany and Russia had got a possibility to strangle German war industry by occupying a small piece of Sweden.

What had been Hitler's reaction? I think Studie Nord had been fulfilled as originally designed and also Sweden had been occupied 1940.
Do you have any sources that indicates that Sweden where to be occupied?
Seppo Jyrkinen wrote: When helping Finland, Sweden was helping as much herself.
Yes.
Seppo Jyrkinen wrote:
I have been wondering if Göring really put an umbrella over Sweden (against Hitler) in the beginning of 1940. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2&t=175078

Is this true, not true - or a question mark?
Not real question mark that he took the credit, but I have never seen anything that suggests that he (or any other German) did stop any ongoing planning to capture Sweden.

Cheers
/John

Seppo Jyrkinen
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Re: Re:

Post by Seppo Jyrkinen » 14 Mar 2011 19:36

John T wrote:
Seppo Jyrkinen wrote:.... If Stalin had occupied Finland, Red Army troops had settled down just 150 km from Gällivare. Swedish iron ore was vital for Germany and Russia had got a possibility to strangle German war industry by occupying a small piece of Sweden.

What had been Hitler's reaction? I think Studie Nord had been fulfilled as originally designed and also Sweden had been occupied 1940.
Do you have any sources that indicates that Sweden where to be occupied?
Is an opinion only. Base of it are:
1. Germany did occupy Norway and Denmark to protect iron ore delivery. Sweden was more important than those two counties.
2. Swedish iron and Finnish nickel (in long run) were both vital for Germany's warmachine. After occupying Norway Germany made a plan to send troops to Petsamo area if Soviet Union would attack against Finland. Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was not a problem.
3. During Winter War, 3.2.1940, Prinz of Wied had visited Günther and told him, that if Sweden would take part to Winter War, Germany would join officially. At the same time German general Uthman had visited the adjutant of Swedish army's commander, with same message.
4. Talks between Göring and Hitler in Leonard Mosleys book "The Reich Marshal".

Conclusion: Germany was willing to use military force to protect strategic materials and occupying Sweden had been logical if Red Army had been too near Germany's vital interest. - Not a smoking gun, but possible?
John T wrote:
Seppo Jyrkinen wrote:I have been wondering if Göring really put an umbrella over Sweden (against Hitler) in the beginning of 1940. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2&t=175078

Is this true, not true - or a question mark?
Not real question mark that he took the credit, but I have never seen anything that suggests that he (or any other German) did stop any ongoing planning to capture Sweden.

Cheers
/John
If I understand right, an episode is true, but influences unknown.
A word irony is baked into the word history.

Philip S. Walker
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Re: Sweden could have stopped the war ?

Post by Philip S. Walker » 14 Mar 2011 20:13

Germany did occupy Norway and Denmark to protect iron ore delivery. Sweden was more important than those two counties.
According to "Besættelsens Hvem Hvad Hvor", Politikens Forlag Copenhagen, the Swedish crude iron export around that time was 8 million tons annually. British estimates were that the Germans war industry would break down within six month if this was cut off.

Would be nice to see similar kinds of figures for the Finnish export.

The reason for the occupation of Denmark was that Aalborg Airport was needed for the refueling of German planes on their way to and from Norway. Later on, Denmark became a bit of a free supermarket and a recreation area for the Germans but that wasn't the intention from the start.

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Sweden could have stopped the war ?

Post by Juha Tompuri » 15 Mar 2011 07:04

Philip S. Walker wrote:
Germany did occupy Norway and Denmark to protect iron ore delivery. Sweden was more important than those two counties.
According to "Besættelsens Hvem Hvad Hvor", Politikens Forlag Copenhagen, the Swedish crude iron export around that time was 8 million tons annually. British estimates were that the Germans war industry would break down within six month if this was cut off.

Would be nice to see similar kinds of figures for the Finnish export.
According to Esko Vuorisjärvi at his book Petsamon Nikkeli Kansainvälisessä Politiikassa 1939-1945 mentions that during 1943 73% of German total nickel consumption came from Petsamo and during 1944 (until october) the figure was 87%.

Regards, Juha

Philip S. Walker
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Re: Sweden could have stopped the war ?

Post by Philip S. Walker » 15 Mar 2011 11:04

Thanks Juha.

Would be nice to know the 1940/41 percentages as well.

The closest I've come is one of CanKiwi's posts, seemingly based on the Finnish Wiki text on Petsamo. There it says that in 1940 Finland was Europe's largest producer of nickel, while Germany could only supply 5 % of its own needs. The Soviet Union had all it needed, so the Soviet attempts to gain influence in Petsamo were nearly all strategic.

Bill Murray
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Re: Sweden could have stopped the war ?

Post by Bill Murray » 15 Mar 2011 16:18

Hi All:

Since I recently retired, I now have more time to spend on other aspects of the 1935-1945 conflicts beyond my interest in soft skin vehicles which some of the posters here know is my passion.

While I cannot really add anything meaningful to this particular thread at present, I thought maybe those here that are Swedish speakers might want to look for two books that I purchased when I lived in Sweden 1974-1976.

The books are Petsamo Trafiken and Tysk Trafiken both written by Eric Bjoerklund (Sorry, for some reason the program I use for Svenska Bokstaver isn't working today). They both deal with the truck traffic provided by Swedish companies first to the Finns and secondly to the Germans 1940-1942.


Probably not worth purchasing, I bought them for the photos of the trucks, but if you can find them online or at your library, they offer some further insight into how Sweden dealt with the situations they found themselves in during that period.

I hope this may be of interest to the thread.

Cheers
Bill

Seppo Jyrkinen
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Re: Sweden could have stopped the war ?

Post by Seppo Jyrkinen » 15 Mar 2011 17:52

Philip S. Walker wrote:Would be nice to know the 1940/41 percentages as well.
Nickel production started at January 1943.
A word irony is baked into the word history.

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Sweden could have stopped the war ?

Post by Juha Tompuri » 15 Mar 2011 18:21

Philip S. Walker wrote:Would be nice to know the 1940/41 percentages as well.
Yes it would.
The source I mentioned does not give them.
But it mentions that the total nickel ore production between 12/1940 - 9/1944 was 461 763 tonnes (between 1940-1942 74 397 tonnes) and out of it was produced 16 250 tonnes nickel. Of that amount German industry got ca. at least 13 000 tonnes of nickel.
German wartime nickel consumption is mentioned to have been 50 000 tonnes.
Philip S. Walker wrote:The Soviet Union had all it needed, so the Soviet attempts to gain influence in Petsamo were nearly all strategic.
So it seems.

Regards, Juha

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Sweden could have stopped the war ?

Post by Juha Tompuri » 15 Mar 2011 18:27

Seppo Jyrkinen wrote:Nickel production started at January 1943.
Esko Vuorisjärvi at his book Petsamon Nikkeli Kansainvälisessä Politiikassa 1939-1945 mentions that the production started in December 1940

Regards, Juha

Seppo Jyrkinen
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Re: Sweden could have stopped the war ?

Post by Seppo Jyrkinen » 15 Mar 2011 22:29

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Seppo Jyrkinen wrote:Nickel production started at January 1943.
Esko Vuorisjärvi at his book Petsamon Nikkeli Kansainvälisessä Politiikassa 1939-1945 mentions that the production started in December 1940

Regards, Juha
Processing nickel ore to metal (semi-product, matte) was in my mind. This production started at January 1943 and the other oven came to use at July 1943.
A word irony is baked into the word history.

John T
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Re: Sweden could have stopped the war ?

Post by John T » 17 Mar 2011 21:35

Seppo Jyrkinen wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:
Seppo Jyrkinen wrote:Nickel production started at January 1943.
Esko Vuorisjärvi at his book Petsamon Nikkeli Kansainvälisessä Politiikassa 1939-1945 mentions that the production started in December 1940

Regards, Juha
Processing nickel ore to metal (semi-product, matte) was in my mind. This production started at January 1943 and the other oven came to use at July 1943.
In Petsamo, but that part can be continued in
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=172156

Cheers
/John

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