Finnish divisions elsewhere

[CoffeeCake]

Where there any Finnish divisions on the Western front?

[Hanski]

No. Finland waged a separate war of her own as a co-belligerent of Germany on the Eastern front, with no objectives whatsoever on the Western front.

[Andy H]

There were Finnish volunteers within the Waffen SS, who served eleswhere on the Eastern Front.

Andy H

[Topspeed]

Yes there were ( but only on the eastern front ).

Read about finnish SS volunteers at http://www.feldgrau.com ( or .de ). They were in heavy battles as far as in Caucasus oil fields in USSR. They were called back by Mannerheim and returned in 1943. As far as I remember they also fought they way to the gates of Stalingrad, but did not take part in the fighting over there.

rgds,

Juke

[kosta]

The only objective that Finland had in the Western Theater was of course a German victory!! I do sympathize with Finlands situation in the prewar period ( as also with the Baltic States) however they were a victim of simple geography, and lack of common sense. Had they been more sensitive to Leningrad's vulnerability the whole episode might have been avoided. Sometimes small nations are located between more aggressive ones and they should not try to play them off one against the other!! The rest as we know is History.

[Hanski]

Yes there were.

I beg your pardon? The present question is about the Western front.

The only objective that Finland had in the Western Theater was of course a German victory!! I do sympathize with Finlands situation in the prewar period ( as also with the Baltic States) however they were a victim of simple geography, and lack of common sense. Had they been more sensitive to Leningrad's vulnerability the whole episode might have been avoided. Sometimes small nations are located between more aggressive ones and they should not try to play them off one against the other!! The rest as we know is History.

A country of 3.8 million people can hardly set objectives as to which great power is going to win a world war, which was also quite well understood in Finland. Even with the luxury of hindsight, it is hard to see how any amount of sensitivity would have offered a better alternative.

Precisely common sense dictated to choose the lesser of two evils, when there was no sign of the USSR having changed its hostile and threatening policy towards Finland after the Winter War -- it was only a question of time when the second round would come to complete what was left unfinished in 1939-40 (see various threads in the AHF section on Winter War and Continuation War). No offers of security guarantees for Finland were heard from the USA or the Western Allies then. Of course, surrendering and sharing the fate of the Baltic countries would have been available, but the Continuation War was seen as an opportunity for active self-defence (besides correcting injustice) and it was therefore seized.

[kosta]

I didn't mean to give any offense. However again if you look at the situation Finland could have steered a course away from a confrontation with Stalin!! He was afraid of Germany and didn't need any more enemies. Yes the Baltic States, I believe, no matter what they did would have been swallowed, again because of location!! Finland had they been more flexible could have avoided the terrible consequences, for both sides. Once Finland chose one side it became a slippery slope that I believe took them where they didn't want to go!!

[Hanski]

However again if you look at the situation Finland could have steered a course away from a confrontation with Stalin!! ... Finland had they been more flexible could have avoided the terrible consequences, for both sides.

No offense from my side, either! But honestly, who can say being more flexible had saved us from Soviet occupation? Let us bear in mind the Soviets had already gained a foothold in Finland in Hanko on the Southern coast, as a bridgehead and springboard for opening another front, with a right to transit troops and material there through Southern Finnish railways (and opportunities to deploy commando units on the way, if you like), while the new border after the Moscow Peace of 1940 also allowed them to deploy offensive forces against no prepared defensive positions in the South-East, as all the fortfications of the Karelian Isthmus were now in Soviet hands.

After the peace of the Winter War, Molotov did not hide his aggressive attitude towards Finland in his political rhetoric, he repeatedly requested permission from Hitler to finish it off with the Finns, the Soviets shot down a Finnish civilian airliner on its flight from Tallinn to Helsinki to capture diplomatic mail that was transported in it... so what would have been a suitable flexible response? Hoisting a white flag perhaps?

[kosta]

Dear Hanski:

Thankyou for your info!!
I would love to discuss something with you regarding OOB for the Winter War, however I will start it in the appropriate place in the Forum. Please help me in this!! I will provide what I have on the RKKA, and if you and your friends will do the same for Finland. I believe that we could do some very nice work together!! Again I have looked in the Forum and did not find enough, if I am wrong please let me know where!!

Thanks Kosta

[Hanski]

Dear Kosta,

I notice you already made a start on the Winter War in the proper section of the AHF, and received a link to background information.

To return to the Continuation War 1941-44: the outset I described above was of course the result of the Winter War in 1940: http://www.winterwar.com/War%27sEnd.htm#treaty

It left the Finns with genuine fear of the next round with Stalin. As no tangible support was coming from anywhere else, the German interest in supporting Finland was seen as light at the end of the tunnel.

Any time 1940-41 before the launch of Operation Barbarossa, Finland without co-belligerents would have been simply a piece of cake for the RKKA. But it was certainly not the case after the USSR had been sufficiently weakened by the Barbarossa, which from the Finnish viewpoint was most welcome.

In summer 1944 the best efforts of the RKKA brought Finland at the brink of disaster, but with German help the situation was brought under control again, and later peace could be made with Finland emerging as the only other European participant of the WWII besides Britain that never ended up occupied.

Previously you made a point:

The only objective that Finland had in the Western Theater was of course a German victory!!

Actually, for Finland it would have been ideal if Germany and the Western Allies had made peace. Finland never had problems with any of them, but all the threats came from the East; if Germany had been allowed to concentrate all her force on the Eastern front, it would have removed the threat against Finland for decades. If this "what if" -scenario had materialized, the map of Europe would have looked pretty different by 1945, and also the Eastern European countries would have never become Soviet satellites. -- What else this would have implied, would have totally depended on a certain artist with a funny moustache under his nose.

Regarding small countries making policies to please dictators: I am afraid it does not work. When the Big Boys play around with the world map, it does not matter whether we applaud them or disapprove. If they decide to steal our land, we can fight them to express our opinion on it, but survival as their neighbour is no easy skill.

[kosta]

Dear Hanski:

I can't say I don't agree with you, small nations have to make a choice, and sometimes very little time is given to do that!! Thats what happened to Finland, and other's in 1938-1941, I do feel for those people who only wanted peace!! Finland was one of those in 1939. There is no question in my mind that USSR was the agressor!! However I also believe that things get a life of their own, events get out of hand, usually do to stupid people, such as Molotov/Voroshilov!! No one ever expected the Finns to put up a fight, had Stalin known that he was being misled by them he never would have invaded. I still believe that Stalin only wanted to secure his long northern border, and most of all the vital armament center of Leningrad. The Baltic Fleet was also vital for defending the city. Again if you look at a map both sides were trapped by the geography that was the upper Baltic!!
If Stalin could have got his way I don't think he would have invaded, then and even later!! I don't feel Finland has anything to be ashamed of!! And in the same way the USSR did what they thought they had to!! Look at all the examples of the big states of the "West" doing much worse, and to many more, and not because they felt a threat, but out of GREED!!

By the way I was hoping to put up an OOB in the Winter War tonight, but I have so much material, much of it pieced together from many sources, that I ran out of time!! I will do it Tuesday night!!


Thankyou Kosta

[Topspeed]

I beg your pardon? The present question is about the western front.

Sorry Hanski; I have to buy me a pair of eye-glasses.

JT

[Mikko H.]

The only objective that Finland had in the Western Theater was of course a German victory!!

There were many in the Finnish leadership who hoped that the WWII would be a rerun of the WWI: first Germany defeats the Soviet Union, but is in turn defeated by the Western Allies.

[Topspeed]

I read that a common joke in the finnish army in 1943 was:

" They held a quiz in Berlin. Question was; WHO WILL WIN THE WAR ? Right answered person will enjoy a free stay at KZ camp ! "

[Topspeed]

There were many in the Finnish leadership who hoped that the WWII would be a rerun of the WWI: first Germany defeats the Soviet Union, but is in turn defeated by the Western Allies.

Mikko,

Can you name one ?