Finland and the Nazis

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
Hosted by Juha Tompuri
Dan
Member
Posts: 8429
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:06
Location: California

Post by Dan » 08 Dec 2004 01:18

WalterS wrote:
So Walter thinks this is worse than all the tens of thousands the western allies turned over to the Soviets after the war, some of whom fought side by side with the western armies? This is beyond belief.
We weren't talking about that. We were talking about Finland. Check the thread title. It's up there at the top.
Oh yes we were. You were the one that brought up moral equivilancy. To say it turning over 3000 foreigners wanted by the Gestapo was a war crime, you have to either say the same about the west's turning over Cossaks, et. al. to the Soviets. Either that, or you have to say what we did with by turning over those tens of thousands to certain death or sever punishment was good.

What do we know about those 8 Jews, for instance? Did they have Finnish citizenship? Were they incendiaries? Were they accused of crimes? Did Finland have an extradiction treaty with Germany? There are very many questions of this nature to be answered before the question of crime comes up. We Americans extrite people all the time. We force countries all over the world from Albania to Afganistan to send us people living in their countries. Sometimes we don't even ask. Is this proof of war crimes? Come on, surely you see the need for level headed reason on this issue.

User avatar
Earldor
Member
Posts: 351
Joined: 27 Mar 2003 00:35
Location: Finland

Post by Earldor » 08 Dec 2004 14:44

WalterS wrote: Here is a review of a book by a Finnish historian, Elina Suominem, about Finnish collaboration with the Germans:
Elina Suominen or Elina Sana, is not a trained historian, but a journalist. I will add, with hesitation, that she is known for her considerable left-wing leanings.

Her contribution to the Finnish involvement has been to paint the Finno-German prisoner exchanges a part of the Holocaust. They most certainly were not this. The Finnish military did exchange around 3000 POWs with the Germans, but these were handed over because they were Politruks, Komissars, and other political operatives, not because of their ethnic background. This is evident from the archival material.
More than just eight deportations to Nazi Germany

New book reveals 3,000 foreigners handed over during World War II
And do you consider this, to be somehow morally reprehensible? The prisoners handed over to the Germans were not screened by their ethic background. Their political background was the reason the Nazis were interested in them. That makes hardly makes the extradition a part of the Holocaust, unless you want to stretch the meaning.

The extraditions to the Soviets were another matter. They were stipulated by the agreements made with the Soviets. Finland didn't have much of a choice. This may not be entirely apparent to a member of the Western or Eastern Alliances.

When talking about the Ingrians, Finnish soldiers in many cases left the wagon doors open in the trains that transported the deportees to the border and hinted to the people, that no one is guarding the wagons.
"Finland's part in the holocaust is much bigger than has been admitted so far", Sana says.
That is totally unsupported by the evidence. Unless, of course the Holocaust is considered to be something other that the mass murder of the Jews during the WWII.

It was something that got a lot of attention from Wiesenthal, but after they realized the facts, no more was heard from them.

You might want to check the preliminary report by professor Ylikangas ordered by the president of Finland, Tarja Halonen, after the "expose" by Sana. Unfortunately the bulk of the report is in Finnish, but it does have an English summary: http://www.vnk.fi/tiedostot/pdf/fi/57413.pdf
According to her research, 3,000 foreigners were extradited from Finland into the hands of the German security service (Sicherheitsdienst, SD), and to the secret police - the Gestapo (Geheime Staatspolizei), which was subordinate to the SD. Decisions to extradite were made especially in the early part of the Continuation War, in 1941 and 1942.
Again, these people were not extradited because of their ethnic background. The Germans wanted the politruks and the like.

If you want to dig up dirt from the Finnish history, that is not such a difficult enterprise. Just look at our Civil War, but I'm not sure what you're after, WalterS. Certainly your original claim has been put into a curious light.

User avatar
Earldor
Member
Posts: 351
Joined: 27 Mar 2003 00:35
Location: Finland

Post by Earldor » 08 Dec 2004 14:56

Dan wrote: What do we know about those 8 Jews, for instance? Did they have Finnish citizenship?
No. Although, that is barely an excuse.

Strictly diplomatically, they however were (former) Austrian citizens, and as Austria was part of the Third Reich and Finland was in cahoots with the TR, they were returning the Jews to the Germans.
Were they incendiaries?
If you mean agitators, then no, not really. One of them was considered to be a nuisance to the Finnish authorities, but again, that is no excuse to extradite them.
Were they accused of crimes?
Not to my knowledge.
Did Finland have an extradiction treaty with Germany?
No, they were turned over to the Germans only because the head of Valpo (State Police) Arno Anthoni had made a verbal deal with Gestapo. When the Finnish authorities found out, they reacted, but too late to save these unfortunates. Only one of them survived the war.

Mikko H.
Member
Posts: 1665
Joined: 07 May 2003 10:19
Location: Turku, Finland

Post by Mikko H. » 08 Dec 2004 15:07

Here's something I recently wrote about the eight Jews handed over to Germans in November 1942:
November 6

We Remember:

1942:

In Helsinki, Finland, 27 political prisoners, mostly Estonians and Russians,
are delivered by the Finnish Security Police Valtiollinen poliisi to German
freighter S/S Hohenhörn. Among them are eight Jewish refugees who had
arrived to Finland between 1938 and 1940. They were:

Elias Kopelowsky, born 1882, former Latvian citizen
Hans Eduard Szübilski, born 1907, former German citizen
Heinrich Huppert, born 1896, former Austrian citizen
Kurt Huppert, born 1931, Heinrich's child
Georg Kollmann, born 1912, former Austrian citizen
Janko Kollmann, born 1910, Georg's wife
Frans Olof Kollmann, born 1942, Georg's and Janko's child
Hans Robert Martin Korn, born 1919, former Austrian citizen

The ship departs later that day. In Tallinn they are handed to Gestapo and
ultimately all the Jews end in Auschwitz. Only Georg Kollmann survived the
war. They are the only Jewish civilians from Finland who were destroyed in
the Holocaust.

How this came to be is linked to the person of Arno Anthoni, the director of
Finnish Security Police. Anthoni was a career police official, who had been
the head of the Security Police since February 1941. During the Continuation
War it was only natural for the Finnish Security Police to cooperate with
its German counterpart, Gestapo, and exchange of information on communists
and other elements deemed suspicious was daily routine. But Anthoni took the
cooperation farther than was necessary. While he was no Nazi, Anthoni seems
to have been an opportunist who wanted to ingratiate himself with the
Germans -- even to the extent of handing Jews to Gestapo while fully aware
of their probable fate. In April 1942 Anthoni visited his German counterpart
SS-Gruppenführer Heinrich Müller in Berlin. In this meeting Anthoni agreed to
assist in delivering all the Finland's Jews to Gestapo, and also handed over
a list of all Jews then resident in Finland.

Jews residing in Finland during the Continuation War fell in three
categories: Finnish Jews, Jewish refugees and Soviet POWs of Jewish faith.
Finnish Jews were fully integrated citizens, and the men fough in the front
like everybody else (15 were killed in the Winter War, 8 in the Continuation
War). Soviet POWs were under military authorities' control, but it was the Jewish refugees who were Security Police's domain.

Anthoni and his assistants in Valpo started with the refugees. In October
1942 a number of Jewish refugees (along with Estonian and Russian political
prisoners) were about to be deported to German hands. Anthoni and Minister
of Interior Toivo Horelli had agreed that the affair would be handled as a
normal police matter without involving the cabinet - officially the
deportees were accused of crimes or suspected of spying. Rumors of the
deportations leaked out, and concerned citizens started a campaign to
prevent them. The influential Minister of State Finances Väinö Tanner called
Anthoni and asked him about the rumors. Anthoni lied to him that no such
thing was about to happen. Later Tanner found out how the matters really
were, and used his authority to postpone the deportations until the cabinet
had decided on the matter.

On 3 November 1942 the cabinet convened. When Minister of Interior Horelli
heard of Tanner's intervention, he was enraged. Insisting that the
deportations were purely a police matter, and that the deportees were
ordinary criminals, Horelli threatened to resign if the cabinet interfered.
This would have caused a major political crisis, and after a vote, cabinet
decided to let the deportations proceed. Three days later the eight Jews and
19 others were sent by ship to Estonia. But this incident caused an outcry.
The press and public opinion protested vocally, and no further deportations
took place. Anthoni, who also began to sense that war was not going to end
in German victory, became more careful. He had to resign in early 1944.

In 1945 Anthoni was arrested for his part in the deportations. He was
finally tried in 1948, but the trial turned out to be a rather curious
affair. Anthoni was accused of misconduct in office because he hadn't given
the deported Jews change to leave the country to a destination of their
choice - a very trivial offense. Anthoni claimed that he didn't know of the
fate of Jews in Germany, and feigned amnesia.

The most curious event of the trial was the statement of the sole survivor,
Georg Kollmann. Kollmann claimed he was treated very well by the Security
Police, when all the evidence now available points to the opposite. Kollmann
asked that Anthoni was to be found not guilty. This caused scandal, and
afterwards many Finnish Jews regarded Kollmann a traitor. In an interview 31
years later Kollmann claimed he hadn't said anything like that, and surmised
that the interpreter had misrepresented his words (this is quite impossibe -
even if the persons involved would have been ready to commit such an
outrage, there were in the audience, among others, Finnish Jews who were
fluent in German, the language Kollmann spoke, and they would have been
certain to act if the interpreter would have tried to misrepresent
Kollmann's testimony). Kollmann's attitude at the time and later indicates
that he perhaps wanted to forget all about his sufferings, and let bygones
to be bygones, no matter what.

Anthoni was released of all charges, although the Supreme Court repealed
this decision in the next year. But even the Supreme Court only gave him a
written reprimand. Anthoni also won substantial damages from the state for
the three years he had been arrested before the trial. Afterwards he was
given employment by certain industrialist who during the war had been
well-known for his extremely pro-German sympathies. Anthoni died in 1961.

Minister of Interior Toivo Horelli's motives in the case remain a mystery.
How much Horelli at the time actually knew of the fate of Jews in Germany,
and whether he truly believed the deported Jews were criminals, is not
known. After the war Horelli refused to answer questions pertaining this
incident, stating that he will only speak if sued. He never was. Horelli was
dropped from the new cabinet formed in February 1943, and was the Second
Deputy Speaker of Parliament until 1944. He died in 1975.

Georg Kollmann was liberated in 1945 and until 1950 worked as a doctor in a
US military hospital in Austria. He then emigrated to Israel, continued to
practice medicine and founded a new family. He refused to discuss his
experiences, except for a short interview he gave to a Finnish researcher in
1979. His general attitude in the interview can be summarized as 'what use
it is to dig up such old matters, it's better to forget'. Kollmann
occasionally visited Finland, and stated he bore no grudge to Finns. He died
in 1992.

User avatar
Earldor
Member
Posts: 351
Joined: 27 Mar 2003 00:35
Location: Finland

Post by Earldor » 08 Dec 2004 15:09

Obserwator wrote: Please name nations that were exterminated by Soviet Union.
Earldor wrote: Their biggest targets were their perceived enemies, i.e. the political targets (kulaks, etc.) but the SU tried to do away with the Chechens, the Crimean Tartars, Greek-Soviets, etc.
Obserwator wrote: I completely aware of this.Many Poles were also killed under Soviet Occupation. But. Last time I saw Chechens, Tartars were still around.
There are still Jews around. Doesn't mean that Hitler didn't try to get rid of them, does it?
True many of them died in repressions or deportations, but unlike Poles or Jews under German occupation they weren't destined to be exterminated.
So, you claim at the same time to be entirely unaware of the situation in the SU and say that you know that they weren't to be exterminated. Ok.

I would personally say that keep to the distiction between the extermination of the Jews and the minority people of the SU, if you want to make me stretch the analogy. Leave the Poles out. Their fate after the war was to be similar to Stalin's plans.

What would you call a forced deportation of a nation to the furthest corner of Siberia with barely any rations? How many do you expect Stalin wanted to survive? Does a nation have to be eliminated to the last person in order for you to "kill it"?
The plans for Poland and the East called for tens of milions of people to be murdered, and reduce whole nations to slave status.Stalin didn't have such plans towards people he controled after the war.
After the war many things were different.
. Also, I make no moral distinction between genocide or democide.
German Reich victory-tens of milions murdered, rest kept as slaves, a couple of nations exterminated
Soviet Union victory -total totalitarian control, persecution of people considered enemies of the state
Do you think that it makes a moral difference why you were murdered?

Obserwator
Banned
Posts: 557
Joined: 01 Aug 2004 18:50
Location: Poland

Post by Obserwator » 08 Dec 2004 15:19

here are still Jews around. Doesn't mean that Hitler didn't try to get rid of them, does it?
There wouldn't be any left in Europe if it was Hitler not Stalin who would win the war.



So, you claim at the same time to be entirely unaware of the situation in the SU and say that you know that they weren't to be exterminated. Ok.
You misread-I said that I am entirely aware of the situation in SU, that's why I can the difference between its regime which persecuted and murdered people and regime in Germany which tried to eradicate people.
You continue to miss the point.The aim of Stalinists regime was to terrorize and to control the population, not to eradicate it to the last person as in Nazi Reich.
Leave the Poles out. Their fate after the war was to be similar to Stalin's plans.
It seems that you are unaware as to the plans of Hitlers towards Polish people.Tens of milions were to be murdered and the rest of them reduced to slave status barely above the animal level.You can't compare that with Stalinists Poland.
http://www.dac.neu.edu/holocaust/Hitlers_Plans.htm
During the whole war this plans were put into motion, and milions of Poles died in gass chambers, street executions, or were expelled from their homes to make room for German colonists.
Communists Poland didn't have gass chambers for Poles, German Reich had.
Stalin allowed for Polish State, Hitler didn't want "animals" to have state.
Stalin allowed for education and health care,Hitler didn't want "animals" to read much or to be cared for(besides medicine experiments)
Stalin murdered a huge number of Poles to have control, Hitler wanted to exterminate a majority of them and raze their country to the ground.
Stalin didn't order that Polish children should be taken from parants because they have "communist" tendencies, Hitler ordered hundreds of thousands of polish childrens taken away because they had "aryan features"(they were transported in cattle wagons)
etc. etc.
Whatever you say, communist regime with all its atrocites never aimed at racial extermination, while the Nazi one had it as its main goal, and genocide was its driving force.
Do you think that it makes a moral difference why you were murdered?
Yes.You could surivive as an Ukranian, Pole, or Jew in Soviet Union.Your nation wasn't considered an animal to to another superior race.In German Reich you were an animal to be treated as such and killed of to make room for the superior species.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Post by David Thompson » 08 Dec 2004 15:28

Readers who want to know more about the German plans for Poland may find these threads of interest:

Himmler: Treatment of Alien Races in the East (1940)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=63400
Documents on the Nazi occupation of Poland 1939-1944
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=54862
Hitler's plans for Slavic nations
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=25655
Poles: Victims of the Nazi Era
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=16555
So how many Poles were killed during the war? And by who?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=14831
Nazi plans for Poland
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=13435
". . . I'm happy about each Pole that no longer lives"
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=10998
My position (for those who care) [Nazi Policies in Poland and Russia]
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=953

Now let's get back on topic.

User avatar
Earldor
Member
Posts: 351
Joined: 27 Mar 2003 00:35
Location: Finland

Post by Earldor » 08 Dec 2004 15:48

Obserwator wrote:
here are still Jews around. Doesn't mean that Hitler didn't try to get rid of them, does it?
There wouldn't be any left in Europe if it was Hitler not Stalin who would win the war.
There wouldn't be many of Stalin's preceived enemies left had Stalin been in total control of the situation. The Jews were perceived as Hitler's main enemy.

The difference is that Hitler was "more efficient" and technocratic in his actions.
So, you claim at the same time to be entirely unaware of the situation in the SU and say that you know that they weren't to be exterminated. Ok.
You continue to miss the point.The aim of Stalinists regime was to terrorize and to control the population, not to eradicate it to the last person as in Nazi Reich.
I guess we have to agree to disagree. I understand what you're saying, but I believe it is you who is missing the point. The Stalinists wanted to eradicate their enemies as well. If they considered an ethnic minority people an enemy they got rid of them. Not in the same manner as the Jews, the method was more akin to what the Germans intended to do to the Slavs in general.

The situation after the war was a different matter. Stalin didn't have free reign in Europe in the sense that he could have killed entire nations, and he was more of a pragmatist than Hitler.
Leave the Poles out. Their fate after the war was to be similar to Stalin's plans.
It seems that you are unaware as to the plans of Hitlers towards Polish people.Tens of milions were to be murdered and the rest of them reduced to slave status barely above the animal level.
Exactly what Stalin did to many minorities. Or are you saying that there are millions of Poles, and it is more reprehensible to kill them than only a mere hundred thousand (I don't recall the real numbers) Crimean Tartars, which may be the entire ethic group?
You can't compare that with Stalinists Poland.
Like I've said all along. The situation after the war was different.
During the whole war this plans were put into motion, and milions of Poles died in gass chambers, street executions, or were expelled from their homes to make room for German colonists.
The Poles suffered during the war, yes. But you seem to be unable to make the right comparison. You should be comparing the Polish experience with the experience of the people transported to the Gulags of Siberia, not with the Jews.
Communists Poland didn't have gass chambers for Poles.
Why do you keep on comparing everything with Poland after the war? Is it more convenient to your argument?

And did the Germans build the gas chambers for the Poles? I thought they were for the Jews and the categories falling under the T4 -program.

I know, you are referring to what would have happened after the war. We'll never know what would have happened.
Do you think that it makes a moral difference why you were murdered?
Yes.You could surivive as an Ukranian, Pole, or Jew in Soviet Union.Your nation wasn't considered an animal to to another superior race.In German Reich you were an animal to be treated as such and killed of to make room for the superior species.
You're missing the point now.

You're claiming that it is morally more defensible, if I kill you simply because of your political views instead of your ethic background.

I disagree, and I thought the ten commandments do as well.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Post by David Thompson » 08 Dec 2004 16:05

Earldor -- Did you miss my "now let's get back on topic" direction in the thread immediately above? I don't have a problem with discussing the difference between Hitler and Stalin, but the readers and researchers who would be interested in the discussion are not likely to look for it in a thread entitled "Finland and the Nazis."

User avatar
Earldor
Member
Posts: 351
Joined: 27 Mar 2003 00:35
Location: Finland

Post by Earldor » 08 Dec 2004 16:11

David Thompson wrote: Earldor -- Did you miss my "now let's get back on topic" direction in the thread immediately above?
Sorry, yes I did. Got ya.

Obserwator
Banned
Posts: 557
Joined: 01 Aug 2004 18:50
Location: Poland

Post by Obserwator » 08 Dec 2004 16:17

There wouldn't be many of Stalin's preceived enemies left had Stalin been in total control of the situation
Well he preety much was after the war.
he difference is that Hitler was "more efficient" and technocratic in his actions.
Could you explain why do you continue the two were the same when Hitler clearly made it known that extermination of whole nations was his main goal?
A goal I may add not shared by Stalin, despite his countless atrocites.
The Stalinists wanted to eradicate their enemies as well.
Which were limited to groups of people, sometimes based on ethnic ground.Poles were subject to this to in territories where they lived afert 1920s and after 1939, although Gulags were places of horror, the whole nation wasn't destined for them, nor those who weren't sent to them were denied basic rights.
If they considered an ethnic minority people an enemy they got rid of them. Not in the same manner as the Jews, the method was more akin to what the Germans intended to do to the Slavs in general.
You are in error, please read the links provided earlier, to learn their different methods.They were no gass chambers in Soviet Union, nor were they people considered animals by authorites.
Stalin didn't have free reign in Europe in the sense that he could have killed entire nations
Although he considered some nations dangerous, Stalin never intended to eredicated them, nor was this his main goal and driving force.
Exactly what Stalin did to many minorities.
Again wrong. Hitler's plans was to completely murder a majority of population, destroy their cites, forbid their education and reduce them to animal status.Although limitiatons on education existed in Soviet system and deportations resulted in deaths, that is a different situation.


You should be comparing the Polish experience with the experience of the people transported to the Gulags of Siberia, not with the Jews.
Why ? Are you unaware that Poles were sent to gass chambers in concentration camps ? That 3milion ethnic Poles perished at the hands of Nazis ? That the there were concentration camps made just for Polish people ? What do you know about the Aktion Tannenberg and eradication of polish elites in order to destroy polish society ? Do you know that originally Auschwitz was made for Poles ? The more you post it seems more evident you need to learn more on the subject.
Why do you keep on comparing everything with Poland after the war? Is it more convenient to your argument?

And did the Germans build the gas chambers for the Poles? I thought they were for the Jews and the categories falling under the T4 -program.
Why should I avoid mentioning a historical fact if it proves what I am saying ?

Earldor, yes Poles died in concentration camps and gass chambers-didn't you know that ?Not only that but they were also concentration camps made mainly for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_ ... ation_camp
Auschwitz I served as the administrative center for the whole complex. It was founded on May 20, 1940, on the basis of old Polish brick army barracks. A group of 728 Polish political prisoners from Tarnów became the first residents of Auschwitz on June 14th that year. The camp was initially used for interning Polish intellectuals and resistance movement members, then also for Soviet Prisoners of War. Common German criminals, "anti-social elements" and homosexuals were also imprisoned there
http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps ... tzEng.html
During its history, the prison population of Auschwitz changed composition significantly. At first, its inmates were almost entirely Polish. From April 1940 to March 1942, on about 27,000 inmates, 30 percent were Poles and 57 percent were Jews. From March 1942 to March 1943 of 162,000 inmates, 60 percent were Jews.

Auschwitz became a significant source of slave labor locally and functioned as an international clearing house. Of 2.5 million people who were deported to Auschwitz, 405,000 were given prisoner status and serial numbers. Of these, approximately 50 percent were Jews and 50 percent were Poles and other nationalities. Of those who received numbers, 65,000 survived. It is estimated that about 200,000 people passed through the Auschwitz camps and survived/

Ok. Let's get back to topic.
Last edited by Obserwator on 08 Dec 2004 16:23, edited 1 time in total.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Post by David Thompson » 08 Dec 2004 16:21

Obserwator -- When you first come on-line, please read all the posts since your last one. I'm trying to get this thread back on topic -- as with the thread on Sweden -- and you don't seem to be reading my directions today:
Readers who want to know more about the German plans for Poland may find these threads of interest:

Himmler: Treatment of Alien Races in the East (1940)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=63400
Documents on the Nazi occupation of Poland 1939-1944
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=54862
Hitler's plans for Slavic nations
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=25655
Poles: Victims of the Nazi Era
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=16555
So how many Poles were killed during the war? And by who?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=14831
Nazi plans for Poland
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=13435
". . . I'm happy about each Pole that no longer lives"
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=10998
My position (for those who care) [Nazi Policies in Poland and Russia]
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=953

Now let's get back on topic.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 551#593551

User avatar
Topspeed
Member
Posts: 4785
Joined: 15 Jun 2004 15:19
Location: Finland

Post by Topspeed » 08 Dec 2004 16:54

WalterS wrote:Another interesting article about Finnish collaboration with Nazi Germany can be found at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuati ... prochement

It's too long to reproduce here.
I think this says it all; according to Walter S thinking Finns were evil nazicollabarators whose intent was to cleanse world from righteous jews.

By the way, Mauri Rastas whose text is quoted at the opening of this thread is a fanatical Karelia researcher. Through Google I found at least 20 pages of his Karelia bound stories and studies.

If the concept of Karelia is somehow unclear for Walter S I'd advice Commander Walter S to search under words Mauri Rastas to learn more about it.

Let me shortly rehearsh it for him:

Karelia which was lost to the Soviets during 1939-1940 Winter War was a fertile ( non freezing crop land during the growing/harvesting season ) area where about 20% of the finns used to live. Among lost towns was Viipuri a capitol of province Karelia. In US terms it would mean the loss of land from 50-60 millions US citizens..let's say Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, South-Carolina, North Carolina, Arkansas and also Tennessee perhaps also half of Virginia as well to a foreign aggressor.

Why are the native karelians now then quite active ? Because after the collapse of USSR and eastern block in general all major wrong doing of USSR were straightened out; DDR became part of Germany and Baltic states did regain their independence and Poland is bigger than in centuries. What is missing...right Karelians did not get back Karelia...it remains part of Russia nowadays.

Only reason for finns to get allied with Germany was the fact that they were Finlands only hope in order to regain back Karelia. Finns had no ambition to kill jews or any other minorities in USSR, but had Finns not taken part in the war against Soviets in 1941 along with Germany the changes of getting back Karelia back then would have been even worse if not totally nonexisting. The only mistake by finnish politicians and military command was that they betted on a wrong horse. Even Mannerheim in 1944 confessed the Wehrmacht in the right hands would have conquered Soviet Union. They were horifically wrong. The only defence for the finns is that they did not start the incident in 1939-1944.


regards,

Topspeed


PS: After the war Finland also lost Petsamo and an important fishing shoreline on the Arctic Sea. In US terms this would mean loosing also Alaska. Finland also lost some Islands...let's say in US terms Maui and Bermuda + Martha's Vineyard...not so important I assume !?

Estimate for the US population was found here: http://www.citypopulation.de/USA.html
Last edited by Topspeed on 09 Dec 2004 09:51, edited 7 times in total.

User avatar
Earldor
Member
Posts: 351
Joined: 27 Mar 2003 00:35
Location: Finland

Post by Earldor » 08 Dec 2004 17:33

Topspeed wrote:
WalterS wrote:Another interesting article about Finnish collaboration with Nazi Germany can be found at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuati ... prochement

It's too long to reproduce here.
I think this says it all; according to Walter S thinking Finns were evil nazicollabarators whose intent was to cleanse world from righteous jews.
I didn't get that from WalterS' post. Don't take the argument to the other extremity, please.

The article WalterS refers to is in my opinion a worthy effort in reproducing the Finnish stance during the war. I do not, however, see what is so damning in Walter's opinion in the matter.

I would love to reply to Obserwator's points and then end the discussion on my part. But maybe in another thread.

User avatar
Topspeed
Member
Posts: 4785
Joined: 15 Jun 2004 15:19
Location: Finland

Post by Topspeed » 08 Dec 2004 17:37

Earldor and WalterS,

I apologize Commander WalterS. It was not my intention to ridicule or make mockery outa him. I just didn't like where this thread was leading to when I just saw it the first time. Happy Christmas time ( Jultide ) to all nationalities here.

...and thanks for the links you provided mr. WalterS, they are A. O. K !

rgds,

JT :?

Return to “Winter War & Continuation War”