Finland and the Nazis

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 10 Dec 2004 00:02

Do not try to fan the flames of emotional dissent here, Beppo. The Finnish people are not on trial here, and their WWII record is much more clean than that of many other nations. We're discussing specific allegations of war crimes, whether or not they were actually war crimes, and whether or not they were part of any policy of the wartime Finnish government.
Last edited by David Thompson on 10 Dec 2004 00:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Beppo Schmidt
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Post by Beppo Schmidt » 10 Dec 2004 00:03

You seem to have misunderstood. I don't believe there was any problem with cooperating with Germany.

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Post by David Thompson » 10 Dec 2004 00:04

So if Finland can be put on trial here for aiding the war effort of a criminal state
There's no misunderstanding.

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Beppo Schmidt
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Post by Beppo Schmidt » 10 Dec 2004 00:04

Do not try to fan the flames of emotional dissent here, Beppo.
I wasn't trying to fan the flames of emotional dissent, whatever that means, I was pointing out a double standard.
The Finnish people are not on trial here
I didn't say they were.

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Beppo Schmidt
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Post by Beppo Schmidt » 10 Dec 2004 00:07

Quote:
So if Finland can be put on trial here for aiding the war effort of a criminal state

There's no misunderstanding.
I was being sarcastic. I was referring to the double standard of saying Finland did something wrong by aiding Germany when no one mentions the US aiding Russia. I don't personally believe either was "immoral".

Obviously no one noticed I was trying to defend Finland. :roll:

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Post by Mark V » 10 Dec 2004 00:12

Beppo Schmidt wrote:
Obviously no one noticed I was trying to defend Finland. :roll:
You were not misunderstood.

Mark V

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Post by David Thompson » 10 Dec 2004 00:30

The subject is war crimes, not fact-free opinions.

There is abundant evidence that the Finnish government repeatedly refused to help the Germans deport Jews, and no evidence that they knew that the stories of Nazi mass murder were true. There has been no showing that the deaths of Soviet POWs was the result of any official policy of the government of Finland. The "war guilt" trials, which have not been extensively discussed here, were clearly forced on the Finnish government by the USSR.

Furthermore, it is not a warcrime for a country to be allied with one which is criminal, as long as the country does not directly assist in the commission of those crimes. Acts of individuals which go against the national policy of a country cannot fairly be attributed to that country either.

The only open questions are whether the Finnish wartime government committed any, or knowingly helped the Germans to commit their own war crimes. So far, with the exception of the Nazi policy of leveling Leningrad, the evidence has been very weak. If there isn't any more evidence on the remaining questions, there's not much point in continuing the discussion.

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Post by Obserwator » 10 Dec 2004 01:20

I was being sarcastic. I was referring to the double standard of saying Finland did something wrong by aiding Germany when no one mentions the US aiding Russia. I don't personally believe either was "immoral".
This wasn't a double standard.German Reich wanted to exterminate other nations, Soviet Union to control them, and genocide wasn't its primary goal as in case of German Reich, furthermore in case of German victory nations would be exterminated or reduced to slave animal status, Soviets didn't have such plans, in fact when some of their ideologists presented such views towards Germns in latter stages of the war they were opposed by their superiors.
To point out more-Soviet Unions ideology in its very core didn't claim racial war, extermination as its driving force while German Reich did.
Thus cooparation with SU could have been morally jusified when fighting such an inhuman regime as German Reich.Although SU killed people it was a typical murderous regime world has seen.German Reich in contrast was dedicated to murder,it was not only its goal, it was its reason for existence.
The only open questions are whether the Finnish wartime government committed any, or knowingly helped the Germans to commit their own war crimes
I would be quite interested in Finish state opinions of working with Germans after publications of what German Reich did in occupied territories, that had taken place on 3rd of May 1941, November 27, 1942, December 10, 1942,December 17 1942.

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Post by David Thompson » 10 Dec 2004 01:45

Please stay on topic -- Finland in WWII. The differences between the USSR and Nazi Germany already have an open discussion going at:

Moral differences of G/Democide
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=65980

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Post by Topspeed » 10 Dec 2004 07:51

Valtoro wrote:
There has been no illegal treatments against pows in Finland during the war ( except few cases were prisoners were not taken )
...Just referring to an older thread.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&start=15

(This is not an personal attack on you TopSpeed :)

Merry Christmas / God Jul! 8)
Valtoro,

Do you expect me to take seriously that Aftenposten story...finns tortured norwegians..that is a laughable and hidious story. First of all OHRANA was soviet secret police not finnish. Any newspapper making that low accusions without a knowledge of things that took place is is not worth the paper it is written on. Furthermore if a norwegian person was arrested in Kirkkoniemi ( Finland ) by finnish police there is a strong reason to believe the finnish police did what he had to do.
I am sure any newspaper can start to blame other nations for whatever reasons with fake stories, but very rapidly those stories will take the credibility from the paper.
If that mr. O.Harjo ( sounds like a finn ! ) really did suffer and is not a delusional nutcase I take back my words.

Marry X-mas in the country of endless seafood and oil.

regards,

Topspeed

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Post by David Thompson » 10 Dec 2004 08:07

Topspeed -- Please try to work some sources into your posts.

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Post by Earldor » 10 Dec 2004 12:49

Obserwator wrote:
The only open questions are whether the Finnish wartime government committed any, or knowingly helped the Germans to commit their own war crimes
I would be quite interested in Finish state opinions of working with Germans after publications of what German Reich did in occupied territories, that had taken place on 3rd of May 1941, November 27, 1942, December 10, 1942,December 17 1942.
First you need to tell me a few things:

1. Do you think that the reports were sent to the German Allies or Germany?
2. What do you suggest the Finnish Government should have done?

Please provide sources to back up at least the first claim.

To clarify my position, I'm not denying that the Finnish government might have gotten wiff of these reports or known about some of the activities listed in them through some other means, but we need to establish what was known and when and what it looked like from the Finnish perspective.

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Post by Tero » 10 Dec 2004 13:06

By David Thompson

So far, with the exception of the Nazi policy of leveling Leningrad, the evidence has been very weak.
And even the "evidence" on the leveling of Leningrad is dubious.

The Nazis threatened (or promised) to level Leningrad quite openly. So what ? The Finnish government could really not care less for such promises. Shit happens during war. If the Finns were really itching to stomp on Leningrad why did the Finnish troops stop at the OLD border in the isthmus ?

It was not the first time a government or an army would wait and see while two other countries and armies duke it out and the decide what to do when the outcome is clear.

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Post by Valtoro » 10 Dec 2004 14:15

Do you expect me to take seriously that Aftenposten story...finns tortured norwegians..that is a laughable and hidious story. First of all OHRANA was soviet secret police not finnish
The article talks about the Valpo, not the "Ohrana".
quote from the article:
"Fra forskjellige arkiver har hun hentet informasjon som viser at Finlands hemmelige statspoliti Valpo samarbeidet intimt med Gestapo i Norge og med norsk sikkerhetspoliti"
The most probably reason for using "okrana" in :

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks ... 707737.ece
"Jeg blev meget brutalt behandlet av den finske okrana (sikkerhetspoliti) og den tyske gestapo. Første behandlingen fikk jeg tre dager efter at jeg ble arestert av den tyske gestapo.

...was that he didn't know the offical name, and just used an name he was familiar with regarding secret police, it could most probably have been ended with "Finnish and German Gestapo"
.Any newspapper making that low accusions without a knowledge of things that took place is is not worth the paper it is written on.
If you really find these accusions so wrong, you have the chance to complain to the Norwegian Press society (NP) about this, they are obliged to follow the "Vær varsom" rules ("Be careful" is the more direct translation of "Vær varsom") This includes checking the facts.

http://www.presse.no/klageabc.asp
and
http://www.presse.no/varsom.asp

Or alternatively contact Morten Jentoft for more information
(http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks ... 707737.ece) He's writing a book about this: [email protected]
Furthermore if a norwegian person was arrested in Kirkkoniemi ( Finland ) by finnish police there is a strong reason to believe the finnish police did what he had to do.
He was arrested on norwegian ground (Kirkenes) Kirkenes was controlled by the Wehrmacht and the so-called "government" by Quisling from june 1940 to october 1944. Btw there are evidence even on this forum that there were finnish troops stationed in Kirkenes (Please note that I'm not accusing this guy's grandfather to be a warcriminal!)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... h+kirkenes

If that mr. O.Harjo ( sounds like a finn ! ) really did suffer and is not a delusional nutcase I take back my words.
He had probably finnish relatives, Norway had before 1945 and still have two finnishspeaking communities, on in the north: Kvener and one in the south: Finnskogen.

http://nyhuus.deich.folkebibl.no/deichm ... ml#finnene
http://www.kvener.no/kvensk_historie.html

I would be more than happy to get evidences that this never happened,
since I couldn't put this in a context with the brave finnish troops during the Winter-wars.

Now it's back to the exams...! :(

/Valtoro.

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Post by Topspeed » 10 Dec 2004 16:37

Valtoro wrote:
Do you expect me to take seriously that Aftenposten story...finns tortured norwegians..that is a laughable and hidious story. First of all OHRANA was soviet secret police not finnish

"Jeg blev meget brutalt behandlet av den finske okrana (sikkerhetspoliti) og den tyske gestapo.

I would be more than happy to get evidences that this never happened,
since I couldn't put this in a context with the brave finnish troops during the Winter-wars.

Now it's back to the exams...! :(

/Valtoro.
Finnish OKRANA...gimme a brake will ya ? :lol: What was he accused for ?

Valtoro....possibly we have to wait when the dude sobers up and starts to talk about understandable language...possibly he wakes up and remember that it was Faröarnas STASI that put him in jail and abused him sexually in a flying saucer. That guy may have been in good shape during Winter War, but memory starts to fail...just my opinion of course.

Someone making claims like that should have at least details thoroughly cleared for him. Mr David Thompson..please don't bann me.

regards,

topspeed

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