The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

Post by Juha Tompuri » 18 Dec 2013 21:20

Yep, Aunus it is.

47mm is also what I have read, and can't remember any source that mentions that 45mm AT-gun being of a armament of any Finnish Navy vessels.
Also the info (not to mention photos) of the twin Madsen is "quite" rare.
What about the roof mounted mg? I'm not sure about the type - Degtjarev DA?

According to the SA-photos, the original Finnish armament (1941) of Aunus was 2 20mm Madsen +?
ca. 1942-1943 she had perhaps a 47mm Hotchkiss/Obuhov at bow and quad Maxim on the bridge roof +?
The 45mm AT-gun possibly was mounted for the 1944 sailing season.

Some background info about ex-Lavian Ilga at Finnish service:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/~kd4997/Sota/Ilga/ILGA-laiva.htm
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t#p1664249

Photo sources:
http://sa-kuva.fi photo numbers
162369
113265
162370

Markus, your turn next.

Regards, Juha
Last edited by Juha Tompuri on 18 Dec 2013 21:26, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: adding info

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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

Post by peeved » 18 Dec 2013 21:38

Thanks Juha,

New quizztion: The name of this gun and at least two respects in which it represented a swan song in artillery technology.

Markus
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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

Post by JTV » 19 Dec 2013 06:22

Juha Tompuri wrote: 47mm is also what I have read, and can't remember any source that mentions that 45mm AT-gun being of a armament of any Finnish Navy vessels.
Excellent question, I spent over half an hour yesterday trying to figure out the right ship, but without success. As you mentioned the gun seems to be 45-mm antitank gun on coastal artillery gun mount, not the 45/47 N (21-K) naval gun version used on numerous Finnish ships. None of the sources mention the antitank gun version being used on any ship.

45-mm antitank-gun on coastal artillery mount. SA-kuva photo archive, photo number 125110:
Image
Also the info (not to mention photos) of the twin Madsen is "quite" rare.
Try one of a kind in Finnish use if "20 mm Suomessa" by Pitkänen and Simpanen page 151 is correct. According this book the dual-gun version was listed in Finland as 20 ItK/36 M2.
What about the roof mounted mg? I'm not sure about the type - Degtjarev DA?
Impossible to say for sure due angle from which photo was taken, but my best guess is that it might be ShKAS.

Jarkko

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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

Post by peeved » 19 Dec 2013 17:03

peeved wrote:New quizztion: The name of this gun and at least two respects in which it represented a swan song in artillery technology.
The half-a-dozen AFAIK last in artillery things for this gun type I can think of relate to combinations of recoil system, propellant and muzzle attachment used.

Markus

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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

Post by peeved » 20 Dec 2013 07:34

peeved wrote:The half-a-dozen AFAIK last in artillery things for this gun type I can think of relate to combinations of recoil system, propellant and muzzle attachment used.
An example: Last black powder gun with a muzzle brake (possibly also the first production gunpowder artillery piece with muzzle brake).

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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

Post by peeved » 20 Dec 2013 22:14

Hint: French barrel, Finnish mounting, Nominal calibre very popular in US tanks of early post-war period.

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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

Post by John Hilly » 28 Dec 2013 19:46

Had this "thing" anything to do with your quizztion?
culasse_canon.jpg
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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

Post by peeved » 28 Dec 2013 20:07

Hi J-P,

For example that; AFAIK the quiz gun was the last service weapon to use the original breech system.

Markus

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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

Post by BarSeek » 29 Dec 2013 07:44

Juha Tompuri wrote:According to the SA-photos, the original Finnish armament (1941) of Aunus was 2 20mm Madsen +?
ca. 1942-1943 she had perhaps a 47mm Hotchkiss/Obuhov at bow and quad Maxim on the bridge roof +?
The 45mm AT-gun possibly was mounted for the 1944 sailing season.
Late add-on to "Aunus" guns (missed the question).
Ladoga Coastal Brigade diary contains records :

20.5.42 : s/s "Aunus" carried out gun testing. 14 pcs "Wickers" projectiles for 40 ItK/15-V and 200 pcs 7.65 mm cartridges for "Urkupyssy" used.
2.10.43 : s/s "Aunus" reported as currently armed by 1/47/40/OL and 2/20/60/M
03.12.43 : s/s "Aunus" used 20 pcs 47/40-OL projectiles for fire training
11-12.5.44 : 7.62 It.kk/31 ss was removed from s/s "Aunus", 20 It.K/36 M2 installed
27-28.6.44 : 45 mm anti-tank gun was placed on s/s "Aunus" in Lahdenpohja. Same gun placed to tugboat s/s "Valamo"

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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

Post by John Hilly » 29 Dec 2013 19:16

Only thing I can suggest is that this 90 mm De Bange was the last gun used in combat with fixed recoil.
So it was the last Slow Fire gun used, vs. more modern QF guns with modern recoil systems?

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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

Post by peeved » 29 Dec 2013 21:04

Hi J-P,

The quizbang did start out as a regular 90 mm de Bange devoid of a recoil system but was retrofitted with one by Wärtsilä IIRC. AFAIK it was both the last black powder artillery piece and the last gun with recoiling carriage to be converted into on-carriage recoil.

Markus

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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

Post by John Hilly » 31 Dec 2013 17:27

Do you mean I must figure out a new question Markus? :roll:
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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

Post by peeved » 01 Jan 2014 01:11

Hi J-P,

Go ahead with the next question since you've got most of the puzzle pieced together. As you obviously know the quiz gun is a 90 mm de Bange; In this incarnation known among other things as 90 K 77 k (for kiinteä or static) according to my photo source Rannikon Puolustaja N:o 4/1995.

AFAIK among service weapons of artillery it was:
The last black powder piece of artillery to be retired (disregarding the odd salute guns and museum weapons nominally on the roster)
The last black powder piece made with a muzzle brake (possibly also the first),
The last piece to use the original Mle 1877 de Bange interrupted screw breech,
The last black powder piece with a recoil mechanism (vipulavetti or lever carriage in this case),
The last gun with a recoiling carriage converted into one with a recoil mechanism.

Markus

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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

Post by John Hilly » 03 Jan 2014 14:28

Thanks Markus, although I didin't actually meet the demands!

Something exotic. What an earth these remains have anything to do with Finland?
exotic.jpg
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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

Post by Juha Tompuri » 03 Jan 2014 18:34

John Hilly wrote: What an earth these remains have anything to do with Finland?
Pearl of the sky Cyclone engine, used both at Finland and at Papahānaumokuākea area
http://www.papahanaumokuakea.gov/mariti ... hotos.html

Regards, Juha

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