Hello Gentleman.
I am looking for any information about any possible aerial attacks that may have occured between Finland and the Axis after she declared war on them between September 1944 and April 1945.
I'm especially interested about the possibility of dogfights between Finland and the axis or 109 against 109 air confrontations if they occured.
Best Regards
Air battles of the Lapland War
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Ostfront Enthusiast
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One interesting incident took place on 3 October 1944. Six Finnish Brewster B-239 fighters intercepted 12 German Stukas over the northernmost part of Bothnian Gulf. Finns claimed two Stukas shot down without losses. Now, German records show that there were only six Stukas and they suffered no losses. Others may correct me, but I remember reading long ago, that one of the Finnish pilots later revealed there was no fighting. Finnish Brewsters met the German Stukas, circled one another for a while, and then both parties turned back without firing a shot. The victory claims were made up to impress the higher-ups, who were desperate to show the Soviets that Finns and Germans were fighting a real war. Can anyone confirm or dispute this story, which I admittedly read a long time ago (and can't remember the source)?
Interestingly, AFAIK Finns did not use any of their Me 109G's in the Lapland War. Whether this was because of fear that there would be potentially fatal confusion, or out of desire to keep the best fighters in south to face the Soviets if need be, I don't know.
Interestingly, AFAIK Finns did not use any of their Me 109G's in the Lapland War. Whether this was because of fear that there would be potentially fatal confusion, or out of desire to keep the best fighters in south to face the Soviets if need be, I don't know.
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Ostfront Enthusiast
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Hello Mikko H.
Thankyou, that is most interesting! It does appear to me that the Finns were not overly keen on this war. I notice that you didn't indicate if the Ju-87s had any fighter escort. Is this common, especially by this stage in the war?
Best Regards
Thankyou, that is most interesting! It does appear to me that the Finns were not overly keen on this war. I notice that you didn't indicate if the Ju-87s had any fighter escort. Is this common, especially by this stage in the war?
If you or anyone else had more information on this I would be most greatful.Interestingly, AFAIK Finns did not use any of their Me 109G's in the Lapland War.
Best Regards
A Norwegian book called "Flyalarm" mentiones only one incident in Northern Norway/Lapland , where a German plane shot down a Finnish plane.
10.October 1944
Finnish Ju88A-4 (JK-256) from PLeLv.44 shot down by a Me109G from 9./JG5
Apart form this, another Ju88 was shot down by German Flak on the 15th Oct.
28th November, German Me 109`s intercepted A Finnish Ju88 in the Lyngenfjord area, but the Ju managed to escape.
Edit:
May also add that Finnish planes also attacked groundtargets in Norway and the Strongpoint "Sturmbockstellung" in the Lyngen line in a few occations late in 1944 / Early 45.
The Last Finnish mission over Norway was carried out on the 4th April 1945.
EE
10.October 1944
Finnish Ju88A-4 (JK-256) from PLeLv.44 shot down by a Me109G from 9./JG5
Apart form this, another Ju88 was shot down by German Flak on the 15th Oct.
28th November, German Me 109`s intercepted A Finnish Ju88 in the Lyngenfjord area, but the Ju managed to escape.
Edit:
May also add that Finnish planes also attacked groundtargets in Norway and the Strongpoint "Sturmbockstellung" in the Lyngen line in a few occations late in 1944 / Early 45.
The Last Finnish mission over Norway was carried out on the 4th April 1945.
EE
Yes, that seems really to be the only aircraft vs. aircraft kill in the whole Lapland War (if we leave out the incident I described in my first post to this thread).A Norwegian book called "Flyalarm" mentiones only one incident in Northern Norway/Lapland , where a German plane shot down a Finnish plane.
10.October 1944
Finnish Ju88A-4 (JK-256) from PLeLv.44 shot down by a Me109G from 9./JG5
Finns lost a total of five bombers to AA fire:Apart form this, another Ju88 was shot down by German Flak on the 15th Oct.
- Bristol Blenheim BL-198 from PLeLv 42 on 2 October 1944
- Bristol Blenheim BL-190 from PLeLv 48 on 5 October 1944 (crash-landed)
- Junkers Ju 88 JK-263 from PLeLv 44 on 15 October 1944 (crash-landed)
- Bristol Blenheim BL-156 from PLeLv 42 on 18 October 1944
- Ilyuchin DB-3 DB-16 from PLeLv 46 on 22 October 1944
Source Keskinen & Stenman LeR 4.
As far as I know German bombers and reconnaissance planes operated mainly without fighter escort. I think Germans were rather well informed on the Finnish fighters (one flight of Brewsters and one "Ghost Moranes") in Lapland which could not match German Focke-Wulfs or Messerschmitts. During the early phases of Lapland War German fighters patrolled in small groups over Lapland but later their ranges were not long enough. German Junkers Ju 88 and 188 reconnaissance planes were too fast for obsolescent Finnish fighters used in Lapland War.Ostfront Enthusiast wrote:I notice that you didn't indicate if the Ju-87s had any fighter escort. Is this common, especially by this stage in the war?
Another reasons for the absence of the Finnish Messerchmitt Bf 109G fighters were the bad conditions in the small airfields. Germans demolished the best airfields at Kemi and Rovaniemi as well as their "depot airfield" at Pori. Messerchmitt had a very short range compared to Brewster and "Ghost Morane".
German anti-aircraft defence was very strong and part of their AA batteries were equipped with radars. These units could fire accurately even they didn't visually see their targets. Finnish bomber losses were mainly caused by these or engine failures.
I have this book, "Kohtalon lennot" or something like that, and this books describes as accurately as we know lose of every single FAF aircraft during 39-45 and on the section about lapland war, minus the accidents almost every lose is credited to "Flakvierling" IIRC.
Just dont know at the moment where the book is so cant provide the details, but maybe somebody else can help.
Just dont know at the moment where the book is so cant provide the details, but maybe somebody else can help.
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mottimatti
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I must agree with Harri. We must remember the narrowness of landing gear of Me 109, and Harri:Harri wrote:[
Another reasons for the absence of the Finnish Messerchmitt Bf 109G fighters were the bad conditions in the small airfields. Germans demolished the best airfields at Kemi and Rovaniemi as well as their "depot airfield" at Pori. Messerchmitt had a very short range compared to Brewster and "Ghost Morane".
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this is the reason why poor airfields were not fitable for Me 109 . Am I correct ?
And there was also third reason: " Valvontakomissio ". Allies ( mainly Russians ) wanted to put Finnish Defence Forces very quickly to Peacetime Strengthness. It is also reason why We Finns call Lapland War as " A Childrens War ". After October 1944 only forces that stood on Finnish side of line were conscritption troops. No veterans ( except Regular Officers , NCO:s and WO:s ).
Rgds Mottimatti
Let me make a guess. As far as I understand, the Me 109 required a special technique for take-off. The engine was very powerful for the size of te aircraft, while the rudder and elevator surfaces were fairly small. When accelerating for take-off, the pilot had to take special care not to let the tail wheel prematurely lift up from the runway surface, until there was airspeed enough for the tail control surfaces to stabilize the aircraft. Otherwise, in full throttle immense torque forces would start to twist the aircraft, which was then out of control and crashed. In Utti air base, a certain patch outside a runway was dubbed Mersukulma, "Messerschmitt corner", for the repeated crashes that had ended up there due to this phenomenon.mottimatti wrote:I must agree with Harri. We must remember the narrowness of landing gear of Me 109, and Harri:
this is the reason why poor airfields were not fitable for Me 109 . Am I correct ?
Am I right in saying that the runway length requirements for safe Messerchmitt take-off were not met in the airfields of Northern Finland 1944-45?
Also Fiat G.50 was probably one of the FAF fighters flown in the Lapland War?
For a general thread on the Lapland War, see: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=9757
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mottimatti
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AFAIK You are right.Hanski wrote:[
Am I right in saying that the runway length requirements for safe Messerchmitt take-off were not met in the airfields of Northern Finland 1944-45?
Still, this narrowness of Landing Gear in Me109 make it riskable at landing. Am I right ?
The losses of FAF at Lapland War are listed f.e. in Risto Pajaris book: " Jatkosota ilmassa " WSOY, 1982.
If someone wants, I can make a translation from finnish to english.
Rgds Mottimatti
The Bf-109s weren't used in Lapland as the flight distance was too long from them (From eg. Rissala)
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2His ... telma.html
"Finnish troops had landed at Tornio and needed protection from German Stukas.
October 3, 1944. Air combat. At 1:15 pm Bruun, Lt Lars Linden and Ssgt Kaarlo Saukkonen took off to sea to escort shipments between Oulu and Röyttä. Encountered a German Ju-88 attacking the S/S Regulus. Linden hit the left engine, but the bomber hid in clouds. At the same time Teromaa's flight of six BW's was following River Kemijoki towards Rovaniemi, when they met 12 Ju-87's. They dropped their bombs and turned back. Since they didn't know if they were allowed to fire at the Stukas, chaos ensued. The gunner of one Stuka opened fire at Teromaa and wounded him in the knee. Angered, Teromaa shot the plane down and Ssgt Oiva Hietala followed his example with another Stuka. The Germans have denied the losses, but the planes are still in that swamp."
Brewsters also probably shot down a Ju-88. The plane was damaged and got away, but later a wreck of Ju-88 was found near where the brewsters had attacked Ju-88.
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/hist_j ... glish.html
"Type: Junkers Ju 88 A-4
WNr: 088.3860
Unit: 1./PLeLv44 (Pommituslentolaivue = Bomb Flight Squadron)
Identification: JK-256
Location: Ahma-aapa, Simo, Kivalo, Finland
Date: 10.10.1944
Incident:
Autumn 1944, Lapland War. A Bf 109 fighter of 9./JG 5, piloted by Rudolf Artner, shot the plane down. Pilot Captain Kalevi Heiskanen, machine gunner/signaller corporal Esko Kauppila and machine gunner corporal Leo Immonen were killed in action. Navigator, 2ndLt Aarne Keko was injured. Keko wandered three days in wilderness with his wounds before reaching safety."
http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/aakra3.htm
"Rudi Artner scored a total of 20 victories, including a pair of Finnish Ju 88s"
Martti
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2His ... telma.html
"Finnish troops had landed at Tornio and needed protection from German Stukas.
October 3, 1944. Air combat. At 1:15 pm Bruun, Lt Lars Linden and Ssgt Kaarlo Saukkonen took off to sea to escort shipments between Oulu and Röyttä. Encountered a German Ju-88 attacking the S/S Regulus. Linden hit the left engine, but the bomber hid in clouds. At the same time Teromaa's flight of six BW's was following River Kemijoki towards Rovaniemi, when they met 12 Ju-87's. They dropped their bombs and turned back. Since they didn't know if they were allowed to fire at the Stukas, chaos ensued. The gunner of one Stuka opened fire at Teromaa and wounded him in the knee. Angered, Teromaa shot the plane down and Ssgt Oiva Hietala followed his example with another Stuka. The Germans have denied the losses, but the planes are still in that swamp."
Brewsters also probably shot down a Ju-88. The plane was damaged and got away, but later a wreck of Ju-88 was found near where the brewsters had attacked Ju-88.
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/hist_j ... glish.html
"Type: Junkers Ju 88 A-4
WNr: 088.3860
Unit: 1./PLeLv44 (Pommituslentolaivue = Bomb Flight Squadron)
Identification: JK-256
Location: Ahma-aapa, Simo, Kivalo, Finland
Date: 10.10.1944
Incident:
Autumn 1944, Lapland War. A Bf 109 fighter of 9./JG 5, piloted by Rudolf Artner, shot the plane down. Pilot Captain Kalevi Heiskanen, machine gunner/signaller corporal Esko Kauppila and machine gunner corporal Leo Immonen were killed in action. Navigator, 2ndLt Aarne Keko was injured. Keko wandered three days in wilderness with his wounds before reaching safety."
http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/aakra3.htm
"Rudi Artner scored a total of 20 victories, including a pair of Finnish Ju 88s"
Martti
Hanski wrote:Am I right in saying that the runway length requirements for safe Messerchmitt take-off were not met in the airfields of Northern Finland 1944-45?
I don't think that the narrow landing gear was the main reason. Too shorter range and the need of better and longer runways were the main reasons. I think it was also feared that Germans could have attacked Southern Finland and the best Finnish fighter squadrons were left for the defence of that area (HLe.Lv.24, 30 and 34).mottimatti wrote:I must agree with Harri. We must remember the narrowness of landing gear of Me 109, and Harri: this is the reason why poor airfields were not fitable for Me 109 . Am I correct ?
Messerschmitt (MT) was tricky for some-ones while other pilots didn't notice anything special. I think MT was not very special during take-offs but on the ground pilot had to be careful in turns and especially on the soft ground. Later Messerschmitt models had bigger (wider) tyres to handle this problem but the increased weight meant that hardly anything really improved. Visibility from the cockpit was very limited due to a long nose and pilots had to make slight turns during taxiing to see what was ahead.Hanski wrote:As far as I understand, the Me 109 required a special technique for take-off. The engine was very powerful for the size of te aircraft, while the rudder and elevator surfaces were fairly small. When accelerating for take-off, the pilot had to take special care not to let the tail wheel prematurely lift up from the runway surface, until there was airspeed enough for the tail control surfaces to stabilize the aircraft. Otherwise, in full throttle immense torque forces would start to twist the aircraft, which was then out of control and crashed. In Utti air base, a certain patch outside a runway was dubbed Mersukulma, "Messerschmitt corner", for the repeated crashes that had ended up there due to this phenomenon.
All FIATs were moved away from Fighter Squadron 26 (HLe.Lv.26) to training duties and squadron was equipped with Brewsters from Fighter Squadron 24 (HLe.Lv.24). FIATs were handed over to 1st Flight / Fighter Squadron 30 (1./HLe.Lv.30) between 14.2. - March 1944 and to Supplement Training Squadron 35 (Täyd.Le.Lv.35) during May and June 1944. HLe.Lv.30 needed FIATs only as an intermediate model for converting to new Messerschmitts and FIATs were further handed over to Täyd.Le.Lv.35 by 2.6.1944. FIAT had a very short range and it would have been unsuitable for Lapland War.Hanski wrote:Also Fiat G.50 was probably one of the FAF fighters flown in the Lapland War?
VL Myrsky fighters were used during the Lapland War, but these belonged to reconnaissance squadrons and suffered from technical problems due to moisture.
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mottimatti
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FAF losses during Lapland War:
P=pilot
o=observer
g=gunner
n=navigator
+= killed or MIA
W=wounded
D= Plane destroyed
Date, Plane, Squadron, Crew and Personal losses, Plane losses, Task of flight, Desc. what happened:
2.10.44, BL-198, 42, Capt. M.K. Salo (p), 2nd lt. M.V.Yli.Koski (o), Sgt A.E. Poutiainen (g), D. Bombing of German troops Rovaniemi -Ala-Portimojärvi. AA shot and plane flamed . Personnel rescued with paras. Salo returned 7.10. Yli-Koski and Poutiainen returned w. other POW:s.
5.10.44, BL-190, 48, 1st Lt. L.Töllikkö (p) W , 2nd Lt. ( Cav.) M.A.H. Suninen (o) +, LCpl A.V.Ylennysmäki (g) W. D, Rec. & Bombing Yli-Paakkola - Ala-Vojakkala. AA shot and Emergency landing.
6.10.44, JK-260, 44, 1st Lt. B. Lappalainen (p), 2nd Lt. A.T.Siikanen (o) +, Sgt. T.S.Kärki (n) +, LCpl V.E.Nousiainen (g) +.
Bombong Rovaniemi. Lost at foggy weather. Emergency landing, 100km S from Leningrad ( !!! ). Pilot captured as POW. Returned w. other POW:s.
10.10..44, JK-256, 44, Capt. R.K.Heiskanen (p) +, 2nd Lt. A.A.Keko (o) W, LCpl. E.A.Kauppila (n) +, LCpl. L.K.Immonen (g) +. D, Bombing. Enemy fighter shot this plane down at Simo.
15.10.44, BL-180, 46, 1st Lt. M.Hellevaara (o) +, 1st Lt. H.R.Hiltunen (g) +, LCpl A.O.Pihkala (p) +. D, Rec. an Bombing Taipale-Rovaniemi. Crashed down.
15.10.44, JK-263, 43, 2nd Lt. (Cav.) R.A.V.Leheskivi (o) +, WO H.O.Metsola (p) W, 2nd Lt. U.Siivonen (g) W, Sgt O.E.Luumi (n) +. D, Rec. Rovaniemi-Ivalo. AA at Rovaniemi APT.
15.10.44, BW-386, 26, 2nd Lt. L.Linden (p) W. D, Rec. Rovaniemi-Ivalo. Landing at Vaala APT failed. Plane burned.
17.10.44, BW-367, 26, 1st Lt. O.Helenius (p). D, Rec. Rovaniemi-Ivalo. Landing at Vaala APT failed. Plane swinged due soft track.
18.10.44, BW-379, 26, 1st Lt.A.K.Miettinen (p) +. D, Rec. and Ground Attack Sodankylä-Kittilä. AA at Marrasjärvi.
18.10.44, BW-357, 26, Sgt K.I.Saukkonen (p) +. D, Rec. and Ground Attack Sodankylä-Kittilä. AA at Marrasjärvi.
18.10.44, BL-156, 42, 1st Lt. J.Herronen(o) +, Sgt. L.O.Kurki (p) +, LCpl E.A.Willman (g) +. Bombing Ounasjoki-Kittilä. AA N from Meltausjoki.
22.10.44, DB-16, 46, 2nd Lt. H.Dahlström (o), Sgt. R.Suhonen (p), Sgt. O.Elo (g). D, Bombing Sirkka-Palojoensuu. AA at Sirkka. Emergency Landind at Marsh.
23.10.44, FK-104, 26, Capt. P.E.Kahla (o) +, Sgt J.V.Liinamaa (p) +. D, Reconnaisance. AA at Kittilä.
24.10.44, BW-355, 26, 1st Lt. R.A.Sartjärvi (p) W. D, Rec. Kiittilä - Kaaresuvanto. AA shot plane and it flamed. Pilot rescued with Para. and returned 27.10.
25.10.44, SB-8, 46, 2nd Lt. K.L.N.Kotsalo (p), LCpl A.E.Arniola (n/g) +. D, Flying exercise at Luonetjärvi. Plane tarted to flame. Crew rescued with paras. Gunner falled and drowned to a lake.
13.11.44, MY-25, 26, 1st Lt. B.W.Schulze (p). Rec. Enontekiö. Engine problems after start. Emergency Landing at Kemi.
18.11.44, BW-370, 26, 1st Lt. R.M.Nykänen (p). Rec Enontekiö. AA. Emergency Landing to lake at Enontekiö.
8.12.44, LY-116, Le.R.4, Pilot unknown. D, Oulu APT. Crushed to an other plane after start and burned.
Source: R.Pajari: " Jatkosota ilmassa" , WSOY 1982.
Rgds Mottimatti
P=pilot
o=observer
g=gunner
n=navigator
+= killed or MIA
W=wounded
D= Plane destroyed
Date, Plane, Squadron, Crew and Personal losses, Plane losses, Task of flight, Desc. what happened:
2.10.44, BL-198, 42, Capt. M.K. Salo (p), 2nd lt. M.V.Yli.Koski (o), Sgt A.E. Poutiainen (g), D. Bombing of German troops Rovaniemi -Ala-Portimojärvi. AA shot and plane flamed . Personnel rescued with paras. Salo returned 7.10. Yli-Koski and Poutiainen returned w. other POW:s.
5.10.44, BL-190, 48, 1st Lt. L.Töllikkö (p) W , 2nd Lt. ( Cav.) M.A.H. Suninen (o) +, LCpl A.V.Ylennysmäki (g) W. D, Rec. & Bombing Yli-Paakkola - Ala-Vojakkala. AA shot and Emergency landing.
6.10.44, JK-260, 44, 1st Lt. B. Lappalainen (p), 2nd Lt. A.T.Siikanen (o) +, Sgt. T.S.Kärki (n) +, LCpl V.E.Nousiainen (g) +.
Bombong Rovaniemi. Lost at foggy weather. Emergency landing, 100km S from Leningrad ( !!! ). Pilot captured as POW. Returned w. other POW:s.
10.10..44, JK-256, 44, Capt. R.K.Heiskanen (p) +, 2nd Lt. A.A.Keko (o) W, LCpl. E.A.Kauppila (n) +, LCpl. L.K.Immonen (g) +. D, Bombing. Enemy fighter shot this plane down at Simo.
15.10.44, BL-180, 46, 1st Lt. M.Hellevaara (o) +, 1st Lt. H.R.Hiltunen (g) +, LCpl A.O.Pihkala (p) +. D, Rec. an Bombing Taipale-Rovaniemi. Crashed down.
15.10.44, JK-263, 43, 2nd Lt. (Cav.) R.A.V.Leheskivi (o) +, WO H.O.Metsola (p) W, 2nd Lt. U.Siivonen (g) W, Sgt O.E.Luumi (n) +. D, Rec. Rovaniemi-Ivalo. AA at Rovaniemi APT.
15.10.44, BW-386, 26, 2nd Lt. L.Linden (p) W. D, Rec. Rovaniemi-Ivalo. Landing at Vaala APT failed. Plane burned.
17.10.44, BW-367, 26, 1st Lt. O.Helenius (p). D, Rec. Rovaniemi-Ivalo. Landing at Vaala APT failed. Plane swinged due soft track.
18.10.44, BW-379, 26, 1st Lt.A.K.Miettinen (p) +. D, Rec. and Ground Attack Sodankylä-Kittilä. AA at Marrasjärvi.
18.10.44, BW-357, 26, Sgt K.I.Saukkonen (p) +. D, Rec. and Ground Attack Sodankylä-Kittilä. AA at Marrasjärvi.
18.10.44, BL-156, 42, 1st Lt. J.Herronen(o) +, Sgt. L.O.Kurki (p) +, LCpl E.A.Willman (g) +. Bombing Ounasjoki-Kittilä. AA N from Meltausjoki.
22.10.44, DB-16, 46, 2nd Lt. H.Dahlström (o), Sgt. R.Suhonen (p), Sgt. O.Elo (g). D, Bombing Sirkka-Palojoensuu. AA at Sirkka. Emergency Landind at Marsh.
23.10.44, FK-104, 26, Capt. P.E.Kahla (o) +, Sgt J.V.Liinamaa (p) +. D, Reconnaisance. AA at Kittilä.
24.10.44, BW-355, 26, 1st Lt. R.A.Sartjärvi (p) W. D, Rec. Kiittilä - Kaaresuvanto. AA shot plane and it flamed. Pilot rescued with Para. and returned 27.10.
25.10.44, SB-8, 46, 2nd Lt. K.L.N.Kotsalo (p), LCpl A.E.Arniola (n/g) +. D, Flying exercise at Luonetjärvi. Plane tarted to flame. Crew rescued with paras. Gunner falled and drowned to a lake.
13.11.44, MY-25, 26, 1st Lt. B.W.Schulze (p). Rec. Enontekiö. Engine problems after start. Emergency Landing at Kemi.
18.11.44, BW-370, 26, 1st Lt. R.M.Nykänen (p). Rec Enontekiö. AA. Emergency Landing to lake at Enontekiö.
8.12.44, LY-116, Le.R.4, Pilot unknown. D, Oulu APT. Crushed to an other plane after start and burned.
Source: R.Pajari: " Jatkosota ilmassa" , WSOY 1982.
Rgds Mottimatti
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mottimatti
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That sounds reasonable to me .I don't think that the narrow landing gear was the main reason. Too shorter range and the need of better and longer runways were the main reasons. I think it was also feared that Germans could have attacked Southern Finland and the best Finnish fighter squadrons were left for the defence of that area (HLe.Lv.24, 30 and 34).
Rgds Mottimatti
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mottimatti
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