Air battles of the Lapland War

[Juha Tompuri]

... Finnish Brewsters met the German Stukas, circled one another for a while, and then both parties turned back without firing a shot. The victory claims were made up to impress the higher-ups, who were desperate to show the Soviets that Finns and Germans were fighting a real war. Can anyone confirm or dispute this story, which I admittedly read a long time ago (and can't remember the source)?

Pohjoinen Ilmasota By Hannu Valtonen?

I have this book, "Kohtalon lennot" or something like that, and this books describes as accurately as we know lose of every single FAF aircraft during 39-45

Nearly every plane, not all. Compare the cases mentioned there with Risto Pajari books and Ilmavoimat Talvisodassa by Keskinen & Stenman for instance.
But a very useful book in general.

Regards, Juha

[mottimatti]

I have this book, "Kohtalon lennot" or something like that, and this books describes as accurately as we know lose of every single FAF aircraft during 39-45

Nearly every plane, not all. Compare the cases mentioned there with Risto Pajari books and Ilmavoimat Talvisodassa by Keskinen & Stenman for instance.
But a very useful book in general.

Regards, Juha

Yep, I have this book : Jaakko Hyvärinen: "Kohtalon lennot", Kirjateos 1982,. Very , can I say Excellent ,base stories about " Destiny Flights " but it is not perfect. That´s why I used Risto Pajari book. BTW ( again ) BL-108: one of this crew is my grandfather, bless him.

Rgds Mottimatti

[Mikko H.]

... Finnish Brewsters met the German Stukas, circled one another for a while, and then both parties turned back without firing a shot. The victory claims were made up to impress the higher-ups, who were desperate to show the Soviets that Finns and Germans were fighting a real war. Can anyone confirm or dispute this story, which I admittedly read a long time ago (and can't remember the source)?

Pohjoinen Ilmasota By Hannu Valtonen?

I don't think it was. I remember reading this from a magazine (Suomen Kuvalehti?) sometime in the early or mid-1980s.

[Mangrove]

Jaakko Hyvönen's book "KOHTALOKKAAT LENNOT 1939-1944" (Note the book's and author's names) tells only about accidents where human life is lost, pilot has bailed out or where the pilot is POW or MIA.

[mottimatti]

Jaakko Hyvönen's book "KOHTALOKKAAT LENNOT 1939-1944" (Note the book's and author's names) tells only about accidents where human life is lost, pilot has bailed out or where the pilot is POW or MIA.

Sorry. A syntax error. Of course it is Jaakko Hyvönen's book "KOHTALOKKAAT LENNOT 1939-1944. I am sorry for misspelling.
And as You said: It only contains losses where human lives were lost or persons were POW or MIA.

Sorry again.

Rgds Mottimatti

[Juha Tompuri]

... Finnish Brewsters met the German Stukas, circled one another for a while, and then both parties turned back without firing a shot. The victory claims were made up to impress the higher-ups, who were desperate to show the Soviets that Finns and Germans were fighting a real war. Can anyone confirm or dispute this story, which I admittedly read a long time ago (and can't remember the source)?

Pohjoinen Ilmasota By Hannu Valtonen?

I don't think it was. I remember reading this from a magazine (Suomen Kuvalehti?) sometime in the early or mid-1980s.

Hannu Valtonen wrote about the subject at Suomen Kuvalehti 1984.

Regards, Juha

[Harri]

Atso Haapanen's books "Suomalaiset pommikoneet sodan taivaalla" [Finnish Bombers on the Sky of War] (APALI, 2000) and "Suomen ilmavoimien hävittäjähankinnat 1918 - 1945" [Fighter Acquisitions of the Finnish Air Force 1918 - 1945] (Koala-kustannus, 2002) are very good sources. They contain all combat losses and bigger accidents but pilot names are not mentioned which is a defect.

According to Haapanen Finnish losses in Laplan War were:

Bomber losses during the Lapland War
2.10.1944 BL-198 (PLe.Lv.42) Shot down by enemy AA fire. Plane dropped down and destroyed.
5.10.1944 BL-190 (48 ) Hit by enemy AA fire. Forced landed, plane destroyed.
6.10.1944 JK-260 (44) Missed during night mission. Forced landed to a lake south from Leningrad!
10.10.1944 JK-256 (44) Shot down by enemy fighter.
11.10.1944 BL-180 (46) Crashed to a lake while flying at too low level. Plane destroyed.
15.10.1944 JK-263 (44) Hit by enemy AA fire. Forced landed. Plane destroyed.
18.10.1944 BL-156 (42) Shot down by enemy AA fire.
18.10.1944 BL-197 (42) Hit by enemy AA fire. Belly landing at Kemi. Plane damaged but was repaired.
22.10.1944 DB-16 (46) Shot down by enemy AA fire.
23.11.1944 BL-178 (42) Landing gear broke when a tyre exploded at Kemi.
3.1.1945 DF-25 (45) Forced landed onto the ice of sea (Gulf of Bothia) in bad weather. Plane was damaged beyond repairs.
15.3.1945 JK-271 (43) Forced landed in Sweden after a reconnaissance mission over Skibotn, Norway. Plane was later delivered to Finland.

Some of the planes mottimatti showed were not destroyed/damaged in Lapland War.

[mottimatti]

.
15.10.1944 BL-263 (44) Hit by enemy AA fire. Forced landed. Plane destroyed.

23.11.1944 BL-178 (42) Landing gear broke when a tyre exploded at Kemi.
3.1.1945 DF-25 (45) Forced landed onto the ice of sea (Gulf of Bothia) in bad weather. Plane was damaged beyond repairs.
15.3.1945 JK-271 (43) Forced landed in Sweden after a reconnaissance mission over Skibotn, Norway. Plane was later delivered to Finland.

Some of the planes mottimatti showed were not destroyed/damaged in Lapland War.

Excuse me : Could You please tell me what planes ?
Are You insulting me ?

You list contains only Bombers. Two other things:

1. 15.10.1944: BL-263. Are You sure . Both of my sources claim that plane was JK-263 ?
2. Thank You for information. BL-178, DF-25 and JK 271 were not in my sources.

As I told, I have used Risto Pajari´s book " Jatkosota " ilmassa " as source. I also checked information from Jaakko Hyvönen´s book " Kohtalokkaat lennot 1939-44 ".
F.e R.Pajari is quite reliable . Col Pajari served as Commander of LeLv 16 1941, Chief of FAF Operative and Training Office 1942 and as Chief of HQ of FAF 1942-45.

Rgds Mottimatti

[Mikko H.]

Hannu Valtonen wrote about the subject at Suomen Kuvalehti 1984.

Regards, Juha

That's settled, then! Could you please give a short summary what Valtonen has to say on this encounter?

[Juha Tompuri]

Hannu Valtonen wrote about the subject at Suomen Kuvalehti 1984.

Regards, Juha

That's settled, then! Could you please give a short summary what Valtonen has to say on this encounter?

Sorry, but I'm not able to help you:
I only know about that article as H. Valtonen mentiones it at the preface at his Pohjoinen Ilmasota book.

Regards, Juha

[Harri]

Some of the planes mottimatti showed were not destroyed/damaged in Lapland War.

Excuse me : Could You please tell me what planes ?

Sorry, I was a bit inaccurate when I wrote "some". I try to explain a bit more carefully. These two cases are not directly related to the Lapland War (although they could be):

25.10.44, SB-8, 46, 2nd Lt. K.L.N.Kotsalo (p), LCpl A.E.Arniola (n/g) +. D, Flying exercise at Luonetjärvi. Plane tarted to flame. Crew rescued with paras. Gunner falled and drowned to a lake.

8.12.44, LY-116, Le.R.4, Pilot unknown. D, Oulu APT. Crushed to an other plane after start and burned.

The latter case according to Haapanen (2000, page 204): "The Lysander LY-116 of the TLe.Lv.14 was damaged on 8.12.1944 at Oulu when it "ran away" against TU-150 at start-up. The left wing of LY-116 was damaged and TU-150 burned down. Lysander was not repaired." So TU-150 liaison plane burned and destroyed.

Haapanen mentions that in military actions Finns losses in Lapland War were a total of 14 planes of which German AA fire shot down 10 and German fighters 1. Other crashes and forced landings were failures and accidents.

Also Atso Haapanen mentions several bomber plane accidents but they are not related to the Lapland War. These are:
- 25.10.1944 SB-8 (PLe.Lv.46) The case mentioned above.
- 22.2.1945 DB-19 (45) Taxied against the hangar wall at Luonetjärvi
- 23.2.1945 DF-23 (45) Damaged in landing at Tampere because brakes didn't work properly.
- 23.2.1945 SB-24 (45) Damaged in landing at Tampere because right landing gear gave way.
- 23.2.1945 BL-203 (41) Crashed in landing at Luonetjärvi.
- 30.3.1945 BL-165 (41) Landing gears gave way at take-off (place not mentioned).
- 5.4.1945 BL-182 (45) Crashed when a tyre exploded at Turku.

Capt. Kahla's plane according to Haapanen:
- 23.10.1944 FK-104 (HLe.Lv.26) Crashed and destroyed at Kittilä either because of "low weather" or enemy AA fire.

Are You insulting me ?

Definately not.

You list contains only Bombers.

I wrote it contains only bombers. Fighters will follow because I don't have Haapanen's fighter book with me right now.

Two other things:
1. 15.10.1944: BL-263. Are You sure . Both of my sources claim that plane was JK-263 ?
2. Thank You for information. BL-178, DF-25 and JK 271 were not in my sources.

BL-263 should without doubt be JK-263. Thanks for the correction!

As I told, I have used Risto Pajari´s book " Jatkosota " ilmassa " as source. I also checked information from Jaakko Hyvönen´s book " Kohtalokkaat lennot 1939-44 ".
F.e R.Pajari is quite reliable . Col Pajari served as Commander of LeLv 16 1941, Chief of FAF Operative and Training Office 1942 and as Chief of HQ of FAF 1942-45.

I have basically used all available sources and tried to cross-check the information. I have to admit it is a huge job sometimes. I have found the books of Atso Haapanen the best because he actually has done that cross-checking for us. That is why I consider his books very good. Keskinen's and Stenman's books are of course the base of all information.

I have found lots of information also from Matti Hämäläinen's books "Kolmen sodan pommittajat - Pommituslentolaivue 42:n sotataival 1940 - 1944" [Bombers of the Three Wars - The Course of War of the Bomber Squadron 42 1940 - 1944] (Koala-kustannus, 1998), "Suomen Ilmavoimien laivueet, Osa 1: Pommituslentolaivue 42" / Finnish Air Force Squadrons Vol. 1: Finnish Air Force Bomber Squadron 42 (Koala-Kustannus, 2000) and "Suomen Ilmavoimien laivueet, Osa 2: Pommituslentolaivue 44" / Finnish Air Force Squadrons Vol. 2: Finnish Air Force Bomber Squadron 44 (Koala-Kustannus, 2003).

Jaakko Hyvönen's books are all in the state-of the-art class but they contain only the most "fatal" cases. Their best part is the pilot and case information (although other "versions" have been seen too). Pajari's two books are good overall histories but already ageing. I have also found interesting information on many Joppe Karhunen's books.

[mottimatti]

Hello Harri

No Hard Feelings. That is how We make and study history at forum like this.

Ok , Let´s check this out :

Sorry, I was a bit inaccurate when I wrote "some". I try to explain a bit more carefully. These two cases are not directly related to the Lapland War (although they could be):

25.10.44, SB-8, 46, 2nd Lt. K.L.N.Kotsalo (p), LCpl A.E.Arniola (n/g) +. D, Flying exercise at Luonetjärvi. Plane tarted to flame. Crew rescued with paras. Gunner falled and drowned to a lake.

8.12.44, LY-116, Le.R.4, Pilot unknown. D, Oulu APT. Crushed to an other plane after start and burned.

These two are in my list becaúse they have happened during Lapland War at North Finland ( sotatoimialue ). I have same reason to list other planes ( fighters etc. ) lossees of Lapland War.

Capt. Kahla's plane according to Haapanen:
- 23.10.1944 FK-104 (HLe.Lv.26) Crashed and destroyed at Kittilä either because of "low weather" or enemy AA fire.?

Yep . There was one strange situation what happened to Kahla before. He was at reconnaisance flight as observer .
12.8.1942 FK-109 returned from this misson to homebase. Pilot was killed during flight and Kahla landed this plane
by sitting in laps of dead pilot. Plane swinged over but Kahla remained without injuries.

Are You insulting me ?

Definately not.

OK !

I have basically used all available sources and tried to cross-check the information. I have to admit it is a huge job sometimes. I have found the books of Atso Haapanen the best because he actually has done that cross-checking for us. That is why I consider his books very good. Keskinen's and Stenman's books are of course the base of all information.

I have found lots of information also from Matti Hämäläinen's books "Kolmen sodan pommittajat - Pommituslentolaivue 42:n sotataival 1940 - 1944" [Bombers of the Three Wars - The Course of War of the Bomber Squadron 42 1940 - 1944] (Koala-kustannus, 1998), "Suomen Ilmavoimien laivueet, Osa 1: Pommituslentolaivue 42" / Finnish Air Force Squadrons Vol. 1: Finnish Air Force Bomber Squadron 42 (Koala-Kustannus, 2000) and "Suomen Ilmavoimien laivueet, Osa 2: Pommituslentolaivue 44" / Finnish Air Force Squadrons Vol. 2: Finnish Air Force Bomber Squadron 44 (Koala-Kustannus, 2003).

Jaakko Hyvönen's books are all in the state-of the-art class but they contain only the most "fatal" cases. Their best part is the pilot and case information (although other "versions" have been seen too). Pajari's two books are good overall histories but already ageing. I have also found interesting information on many Joppe Karhunen's books.

I agree mostly, but: I think Pajari is reliable because he had very good opinion point during War. He had also large archives for use. His list ends at 1944 ( There is no records from year 1945 ). When You say his books are already ageing, I must disagree. Statistics never get old.


Rgds Mottimatti

[Mikko H.]

The incident of 3 October 1944 is discussed also on the FAF history forum:

Last victory of FAF:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/message? ... 1123959092

Lelv26 kills in Lappland war:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/message? ... 1013979941

[Harri]

25.10.44, SB-8, 46, 2nd Lt. K.L.N.Kotsalo (p), LCpl A.E.Arniola (n/g) +. D, Flying exercise at Luonetjärvi. Plane tarted to flame. Crew rescued with paras. Gunner falled and drowned to a lake.

8.12.44, LY-116, Le.R.4, Pilot unknown. D, Oulu APT. Crushed to an other plane after start and burned.

These two are in my list becaúse they have happened during Lapland War at North Finland ( sotatoimialue ). I have same reason to list other planes ( fighters etc. ) lossees of Lapland War.

Like said the LY incident was an accident and the SB incident happened far away from the North Finland. I have personally served at Luonetjärvi (or better known as Tikkakoski) which is about 25 km north from Jyväskylä in Central Finland. Finnish bombers although operated also from Luonetjärvi but this one was a training mission.

Capt. Kahla's plane according to Haapanen:
- 23.10.1944 FK-104 (HLe.Lv.26) Crashed and destroyed at Kittilä either because of "low weather" or enemy AA fire.?

Yep . There was one strange situation what happened to Kahla before. He was at reconnaisance flight as observer .
12.8.1942 FK-109 returned from this misson to homebase. Pilot was killed during flight and Kahla landed this plane
by sitting in laps of dead pilot. Plane swinged over but Kahla remained without injuries.

Actually Kahla was originally a pilot trainee but because his talents were so "bad" he was moved to observer training. Kahla could have probably landed much better but when the killed pilot still sat on his seat Kahla could not handle the steering stick properly and neither reach to pedals. All observers had later basic flying training (for emergencies) and some of them even became pilots during the war.

Both pilot officers and observers (they all were officers, there were also "MG gunners" who were NCOs or soldiers) could be Flight Leaders.

I agree mostly, but: I think Pajari is reliable because he had very good opinion point during War. He had also large archives for use. His list ends at 1944 ( There is no records from year 1945 ). When You say his books are already ageing, I must disagree. Statistics never get old.

No, but other books have better and more complete statistics. So, I suggest checking the books I mentioned. I forgot to mention Hannu Valtonen's book(s) Juha and Mikko already mentioned. Also Jukka Piipponen's "Onttolan Punaiset Pirut" [The Red Devils of Onttola] (Koala-kustannus, 1997) tells an interesting story of Aarno "Aki" Ylennysmäki who was a telegrapher and MG gunner in PLe.Lv.48 (in Blenheims).

[mottimatti]

Like said the LY incident was an accident and the SB incident happened far away from the North Finland. I have personally served at Luonetjärvi (or better known as Tikkakoski) which is about 25 km north from Jyväskylä in Central Finland. Finnish bombers although operated also from Luonetjärvi but this one was a training mission. .

Yes, but at " sotatoimialue " ( War Action Area )

Actually Kahla was originally a pilot trainee but because his talents were so "bad" he was moved to observer training. Kahla could have probably landed much better but when the killed pilot still sat on his seat Kahla could not handle the steering stick properly and neither reach to pedals. All observers had later basic flying training (for emergencies) and some of them even became pilots during the war. .

Yes, but he was not qualified pilot , so what is the question : Was he a " Chicken "? No , He did much more that You can except .

Both pilot officers and observers (they all were officers, there were also "MG gunners" who were NCOs or soldiers) could be Flight Leaders. .

Usually in FAF the observer was the commander of plane.

No, but other books have better and more complete statistics. So, I suggest checking the books I mentioned. I forgot to mention Hannu Valtonen's book(s) Juha and Mikko already mentioned. Also Jukka Piipponen's "Onttolan Punaiset Pirut" [The Red Devils of Onttola] (Koala-kustannus, 1997) tells an interesting story of Aarno "Aki" Ylennysmäki who was a telegrapher and MG gunner in PLe.Lv.48 (in Blenheims).

There seems to be a question: Where those writers get their statistics ? Perhaps from Pajari ?

Rgds : Mottimatti