Veteran Member
Posts: 236
(1/15/02 2:24:32 pm)
Reply Finnish Cavalry
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My great uncle served briefly in 3./HRR during the opening days of the Continuation War. Unfortunately he succumbed to wounds received, and died less than a month after the war began.
I've interpreted the HRR as some kind of cavalry unit. Is this true and if so were they mounted in any way? I know they weren't a cavalry unit in the classic sense, but were they equipped with bikes or some sort of vehicles?
Any input appreciated.
Regards
~Henric Edwards
tyskaorden
Member
Posts: 84
(1/15/02 9:14:21 pm)
Reply Re: Finnish Cavalry
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The HRR reads Hämen Ranikko Rykkmenti (If my memory serves me right) which translates into the Tavastland Dragoon or Mounted Regiment. This regiment formed part of the Finnish Cavalry Brigade.
/Marcus Karlsson
daft
Veteran Member
Posts: 237
(1/15/02 9:25:54 pm)
Reply Re: Finnish Cavalry
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Tack Marcus!
~Henric Edwards
Dr Delomelanicon
Member
Posts: 53
(1/16/02 3:29:42 am)
Reply Re: Finnish Cavalry
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With due respect to Marcus:
The "HRR" stands for the "Hämeen Ratsurykmentti". A "ratsurykmentti" is a "riding regiment", or "cavalry."
A "dragoon regiment" in Finnish is a "rakuunarykmentti."
So your great uncle likely served in the 3/HRR (Kolmas Komppania/Hämeen Ratsurykmentti), or Third Company of the Häme (Tavastia) Cavalry.
Olkaa hyvää,
Dr. D
Edited by: Dr Delomelanicon at: 1/16/02 3:30:22 am
tyskaorden
Member
Posts: 85
(1/16/02 6:49:00 am)
Reply Re: Finnish Cavalry
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Thank you for correcting me, my Finnish is a bit rusty.
/Regards Marcus Karlsson
daft
Veteran Member
Posts: 238
(1/16/02 8:04:16 am)
Reply Re: Finnish Cavalry
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Dr Delomelanicon.
Thanks! I've ordered his records from the Sota-Arkisto on my grandmothers behalf. From what I've heard he had a troublesome life and was quite the "tough guy" in Tampere. There were rumours that he had been shot by his own troops over some dispute, others say that he lost his arm when a mortar shell landed close by. As it was it's entierly possible that he made a few too many enemies.
~Henric Edwards
Edited by: daft at: 1/16/02 8:04:42 am
JTV
Member
Posts: 21
(1/16/02 9:51:34 am)
Reply Finnish Cavarly Brigade and HRR
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Yes, HRR was "Hämeen Ratsurykmentti" (=Häme Cavarly Regiment), which actually was about Battalion sized unit (both Finnish cavarly regiments were, no matter their name). During Continuation War it was part of "Ratsuväki Prikaati" (=Cavarly Brigade) which advanced during early part of Continuation war Cavarly Brigade was under command of German 163th Division and was called "Ryhmä Oinonen" (=Group Oinonen) and started its advance from Ontrossaari-Hattuvaara area at northern flank of Karelian Army (and IV Army Corps). AT October of 1941 attack of "Ryhmä Oinonen" to stopped to Vuotjärvi area about 70 km's north-west of Petroskoi (Äänislinna) town. Later Cavalry Regiment mostly fought close to Lake Onega and at 1944 in Karelian Isthmus.
Finnish cavarly company was not called company, but "Eskadroona" (=squadron). So 3./HRR would be "3rd Squadron of Häme Cavarly Regiment". There is an excellent series of books called "Suomen Ratsuväen historia" (=history of Finnish cavalry) about Finnish cavalry units available in Finnish. Specially part 2 (subtitled "Cavarly in Finnish wars 1939 - 1944") would make a good reference.
Organization of Finnish Cavalry Brigade, 1942:
Brigade Commander
Brigade HQ
Jaeger Battalion 1
Häme Cavalry Regiment
Regimental Commander
Regimental HQ
Command Office
HQ Platoon
Gas-protection Squad
Signal Squad
Supply Office
Supply Platoon
Ammunition Squad
Medical Squad
Veterinarian Squad
Supply Squad
1st Squadron (typical organisation below)
Command Squad
Antitank Squad (4 antitank-rifles)
1st Platoon
2nd Platoon
3rd Platoon
- Platoon Leader
- Platoon vice-commander
- “Hand horse NCO”
- Battle messengers (2 messengers + 2 horse care-takers)
3 Cavalry Squads
- Squad Leader
- LMG man
- SMG man
- 9 riflemen
- Platoon vehicle (horse cart with horse and driver)
2nd Squadron
3rd Squadron
Machinegun Squadron (aka 4th Squadron)
Command Squad
1st Machinegun Platoon (typical organisation below)
4 Machineguns (7.62mm Maxim)
2 platoon vehicles (horse carts with drivers)
2nd Machinegun Platoon
4 Machineguns (7.62mm Maxim)
2 platoon vehicles (horse carts with drivers)
Bicycle MG Platoon
Antitank Platoon
- 4 antitank-rifles
Mortar Platoon
Supply Column
Uudenmaa Cavalry Regiment
Riding Artillery Battery
- 3 x 76mm shortened gun (“76 LK 10/13” or “76mm RK 27” infantry guns)
Gun Squadron
- 6 x “37 K/40” (= 3.7cm Pak 35/36) antitank-guns
Weaponry of Cavalry Brigade at 15th of September 1941:
- Rifles: 7.62mm Mosin-Nagant
- LMGs:
- Lahti-Saloranta m/26: 63
- Degtjarev m/27 (DP) 7
- 50mm mortars ?
- 81mm mortars 9
- AT-guns:
- 25mm French m/34 4
- 37mm “37 K/40” (= 3.7cm Pak 35/36) 6
- AT-rifles:
- 14mm Boys: 12 (24 missing)
- 20mm Lahti L-39 8 ( 4 missing)
- Machineguns: 7.62mm Maxim 38
- Infantry guns: 76 LK 13 4
daft
Veteran Member
Posts: 239
(1/16/02 1:28:07 pm)
Reply Re: Finnish Cavarly Brigade and HRR
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JTV,
Superb info! It's so hard to find this sort of information in swedish or english books so I'm very thankful that you took the time to post the above.
Regards
~Henric Edwards
tyskaorden
Member
Posts: 86
(1/16/02 8:49:30 pm)
Reply Re: Finnish Cavarly Brigade and HRR
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Some more info I found in the encyclopaedia Finland (written in Swedish) when Finland became independent in 1917/1918 there was three cavalry regiments the HRR, the Nyland (Uudenmaa) Dragoon Regiment and the Karelian Mounted Jäger Regiment. The KMJR was disbanded in 1921 and the other two regiments where formed into the Cavalry Brigade with peace time garrison in Lappenranta/Villmanstrand. About 1944 the cavalry regiments where converted into bicycle Jäger battalions. In the 1950ies the battalions where named the Hämee Cavalry Jäger Battalion and The Uudenmaa Dragoon Battalion.
/Marcus Karlsson
Dr Delomelanicon
Member
Posts: 54
(1/16/02 8:57:28 pm)
Reply Re: Finnish Cavarly Brigade and HRR
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I'm learning quite a bit as well. It was my understanding that if an Arabic number preceded the name of the regiment, that was the "company" ("kompannia") of the battalion ("pataljoona", which was always referred to by a Roman numeral), and a squadron was referred to as a "laivue", as in "Lentolaivue" ("aircraft squadron.") Evidently I was in error.
I am definitely going to find JTV's recommended resource ("Suomen Ratsuväen Historia") ["kiitos, JTV"/"thank you, JTV"].
If I have a question of my own (or need clarification), I know where to ask!
"Kiitos" to Daft and JTV (and "Tack" to Marcus [at least you have a capability in Finnish. I never learned Swedish, Norwegian, Danish or Icelandic.] After Finnish, English and Spanish, that was enough!
Dr. D
Henrik Krog
Member
Posts: 34
(1/17/02 3:06:46 am)
Reply Any change...
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Hello
I must add my voice to the those praising you for finding this info and posting it.
Do you think there is any way I might convince you to let me use it on my website?? I try to provide as much info on the lesser-known armed forces of the inter-war, WWII and immediate post-WWII era.
You can find it here: My site
Henrik
JTV
Member
Posts: 22
(1/17/02 12:47:58 pm)
Reply Thanks of positive feedback & few replies
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Thanks for positive feedback to everybody. I had most the stuff written earlier (among the collection of TO&E I am planning to include to my website). My grandfather served at HRR in late 1920's and met a girl who later became his wife and my grandmother, so I have bit of personal interest concerning HRR.
Few more points about Cavalry Brigade:
- HRR and URR went to Winter War without their horses (very small amount of horses were taken with troops as they were not very useful in defensive trench-war of Karelian Isthmus) and fought in southern parts of Karelian Isthmus.
- Cavarly Brigade was formed at start of Continuation War. Jaeger Battalion 1 was the only other large unit beside the two cavalry regiments belonging to it from the start. Around late 1942 - early 1943 Jaeger Battalion 6 was formed and included to Cavarly Brigade also.
- At battles of summer 1944 Cavalry Brigade was located at southern side of Karelian Ishmus and fought maybe its most toughest battles at Viipuri (Wiborg) gulf at July 1944.
- Finnish cavalry basically fought as "riding infantry" (like practically all cavarly units of WW2 did). In other words: Horses gave them a good mobility, but they dismounted before starting a battle. The area where they operated at 1941 was quite ideal cavalry country by Finnish standards: Huge woods with only very few small roads and quite little amount of troops compared to huge area in which to operate.
tyskaorden:
What is interesting is that at Finnish Civil War of 1918 both URR and HRR were recruited volunteer units (volunteers hired with their own horses) while other units of White Army were called-in recruites (Jaeger Battalions, old legislation from 1820's was used for calling up the men needed for them) and volunteer units (Suojeluskunta units).
Dr Delomelanicon:
Roman numerals were used as platoon and battalion-level numbers. Arabian numbers as squad/gun, company and regimental level numbers. Squadron has double-meaning, it is both "laivue" and "eskadroona" in Finnish.
Henrik Krog:
If you want, you can use that stuff in you website. However, I also have website of my own and I am just preparing "library-section" for it. That new section will include a multitude of Finnish TO&E's and lot of info about weaponry of Finnish ground troops during and before WW2. Hopefully I can officially open the "library-section" in end of this month. The whole idea behind that "library section" is to try to distribute the data I have gathered.
My site (I just relocated it from Geocities after they started complaining that I have too much traffic):
http://www.ankkurinvarsi.net/jaeger/
Henrik Krog
Member
Posts: 35
(1/17/02 9:18:29 pm)
Reply Thanks
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I know all about the trouble with geocities. I am myself relocating to a new server of the exact same reasons. They have been complaining since October that I have too much traffic, and as their ads had bothered me all along, I found a new provider.
About using your info: I would be happy to add your name and a link to your site on the pages where I use your info. Its kind of a policy I follow, to credit those who help me out.
Id be delighted to visit your site when you finish it, by the way. Any idea when that will be?
Yours
Henrik
Marcus Wendel
Webmaster
Posts: 1102
(1/18/02 6:01:21 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
Re: Finnish Cavarly Brigade and HRR
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JTV,
Thanks for sharing that excellent info.
/Marcus
JTV
Visitor
(1/24/02 8:57:53 am)
Reply Geocities & Cavarly Brigade TO&E
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I have very good new provider, one of my friends has a webserver and few gigabytes of empty space
That policy sounds just fine, you can use the stuff I sent. Or if want you can sent me your email adress and I can sent a better version for you (Not that I complain or anything, but the format of that data was somewhat messed as this discussion group doesn't seem to understand tabulator, the original version is much more easier to understand).
My email adress is [email protected]
I am doing the graphics for the improved version of my site right now and the official opening will be once I get them done - hopefully late next week or week after that.