batu wrote:I quote Seppälä instead of Baryshnikov. Which I actually did.
I think Sami already pointed out that the text of his Finnish version and the others don't necessary match. Are there intentional translation mistakes?
batu wrote:Harri wrote:Even if something would have been a "Finnish idea" (of which contect is not known) it is very doubtful to create theories based only on that. Basically the whole "story" is worth a fairy tale. All is mere assumption and speculation what might have been. Making such claims based on so little piece of information and evidence is like shooting a fly with a shotgun: it may hit but most of the shots anyway miss the target partly or completely.
true, not much evidence, but I didn't build wild theories. From the Talvela-Kijanen discussion it is clear that it was either Kijanen's or Talvela's idea. Knowing who was Talvela we can easily assume that he could easily come up with it. Actually you don't argue with that. The written estimation of the situation (see my Seppälä's quote) showing Kijanen's excitement at the prospect of the Naval war against suply routes on Ladoga is interpreted by Seppälä ( Seppälä doesn't actually refer to any sourse just quotes Kijanen) as a proof of Talvela's being behind it. It's Seppälä's claim, not mine. And It is Seppälä's claim tht Mannerheim was aware of it. Your cllaim that it was Kijanen's idea and Talvela was just a messanger is stil unsupported by any evidence. But as I said it doesn't matter. It was either Kijanen's or Talvela's idea (Finnish) wihch was transmitted to Germans, GErmans took it well, proposed Italian-German fleet, Finnish HQ were surprised but as Seppälä writesIn any case the HQ was immideately informed about the matter and it appears that it (HQ) was already aware of the arrival of the German boats, because according to the Commander-in-Chief's order of 17.4.1942 the Ladoga Naval-unit K (Kijanen) was established, which provided for the boats coming from Germany and Italy together with Finnish torpedoboat Sisu
This explanation of Seppälä is based on the not proven speculation when he writes "it appears" [näyttäisi]. So, he is not sure. While "the actual plan" is not known there is of no use to continue this because everything between what we know for sure is more or less fictional.
Naval Detachment K was established on 27.5.1942, when Kijanen was appointed to the job, and activated on 11.6.1942.
batu wrote:After the end of the operations Mannerheim gave medals to its participants. I still haven't got your idea how giving medals by Mannerheim was something else than the expression of appreciation however symbolic. If you know that Mannehrime had its own strange way to give medals to people whose activities he despised, why don't you say it straight in simple words instead of sending me to some place to find out for myself?
I have noticed. I thinks the "I see experience" is better if self read from a book.
According to Tuompo already in the summer 1941 Mannerheim refused to award any medals to Germans because they had succeeded so badly in war. At that stage Germans had already awarded numerous medals to Finns and German in turn waited for "their medals". To solve the difference in "award policy" Finns instituted a new "The Order of the Lion of Finland" in 1942. While Germans awarded military medals to Finns, Finns awarded both military (for those with merits) and "half-civilian" medals (for those because of position and no merits) to Germans to make the numbers of medals close to equal.
There are medals which has to be awarded. They are according to a protocol and there is no way to change this even if the receiver would be some "unwanted" person. The case of Heinrich Himmler is exactly such. Medals are awarded to highest commanders but in Finland Himmler despite of his position was not seen equal to other highest military commanders. Thus he received a civilian medal equal to his position. I think also Hitler was awarded in a same way? Göring was an exception again. Finns had "play-eye" [pelisilmää] to award his medal "with brilliants" because he was a known admirer and collector of jevels (not because his position or merits had something to do with it)!!
Usually wounded ones were awarded, also officers but only the best NCOs and men. There is nothing unusual. For example Italian Commander of MAS Squadron received their highest decoration and at least three of the MTB Chiefs received one degree lower crosses and wounded ones received medals. That was a quite normal Finnish way. Most likely Italians didn't receive their crosses "with oak leaves" because their operation was not "highly succesful". In turn Finns received Italian decorations.
I don't see any mystical with these.