Grigorejev's partisan brigade

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Re: Grigorejev's partisan brigade

Post by Mangrove » 27 Aug 2012 15:22

I found Ivan Kazimirov's, Aleksei Ljabekin's, Pjotr Nekrashevitch's, Pavel Oberemko's and Ivan Sobolev's POW cards from the National Archive's database. The others are probably there as well but probably under other unit's ledger than Maa.RE. All of the POWs were given the same designation "RE" (followed by individual number) meaning that they were supervised by some unit under the Maa.RE. The unit was probably one of the three sotavankikomppania behind the front.

Sgt. Kazimirov. 3rd Detachment of the Brigade. Taken prisoner SW of Sellonjärvi on 31 July 1942.
Pvt. Ljabekin. 6th Detachment. Taken prisoner at x=6200, y=0500 on 4 September 1942.
Pvt. Nekrashevitch. 3rd Detachment. Taken prisoner at SW of Sellonjärvi on 31 July 1942.
Pvt. Oberemko. 3rd Detachment. Taken prisoner at x=5000, y=7800 on 11 September 1942.
Pvt. Sobolev. 3rd Detachment. Taken prisoner at Jänkäjärvi on 1 September 1942. Wounded on the legs on 7 August 1942.

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igor_verh
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Re: Grigorejev's partisan brigade

Post by igor_verh » 27 Aug 2012 19:04

Thank you, Martti Kujansuu! I will be very glad of any information about the other POW partisans.

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Re: Grigorejev's partisan brigade

Post by Juha Tompuri » 27 Aug 2012 19:34

igor_verh wrote:2) Now Grigorjev's mauser in finnish museum, but how finnish soldiers got it - according of memories of some partisans, Grigorjev was buried on battlefield and in 1946 his remains were transferred in Padany?
IIRC, The Mauser (and Grigorjev) was found at the battlefield by a Finnsh soldier who took the pistol as a private souvenier. He later (2000's?) returned it to Finnish War Museum.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Grigorejev's partisan brigade

Post by Mangrove » 29 Aug 2012 12:54

It seems that 12. Prikaati's archives have not been organized after the war and so I could not locate the folders containing the prisoner interrogation documents. The same goes also for Maa.RE's intelligence office's folders. The folders are at the National Archive but one would have to go through several dozen folders to find the right ones.

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Re: Grigorejev's partisan brigade

Post by igor_verh » 17 Dec 2012 11:16

Martti Kujansuu wrote:Soviet losses were counted as 113 KIA, including Grigorejev.
Here http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3071704 information, that at 264,9 hill were KIA 84 partisans, the same information at report of colonel Mäkiniemi, but also he wrote about 113 KIA russian - information from captured partisan, but who was that man - from brigade's HQ or any politruk ? Aristov, who had information about all losses during the raid and became brigade's CO after Grigorejev death, wrote, that on hill 60 partisans KIA, 12 MIA, 35 WIA. Some seriously wounded partisans were shot by Aristov's order.
LW wrote:
Juha Hujanen wrote:The Avengers partisan unit was likely the Detachment 116 (Mstitelj),which operated in Sekee sector earlier. Its CO was Karelian known as Nikolajev.
No, Nikolajev was the leader of the Recon Platoon. He survived the operation. Mstitelj was commanded by Popov.
Really Nikolajev was a CO of detachment "Mstiteli", but it was new detachment with same name. It was formed at autumn 1942 and consisted of young men from Sverdlovsk. Nikolaev was CO of this detachment from april 1943 to june 1944.
I have some new question:
1. At Soviet and Finnish sources same events have a defferent time - usually difference about 2 hours. Is it related with different time zones between Finland and USSR at that years (now the difference between Finland and Karelia - 1hour)?
2. About dogfight over Elmozero at morning 18.08.1942: according Gusarov's book - at fight took part 4 finnish planes ant 2 russian "Yak", and 1 finnish plane was hit, but here http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3556442 other information - 4 finnish "Morane" and five russian "Hurricane". Can somebody find reports of pilots of that finnish planes, what they wrote about fight, and what about losses from both sides. Also at partisans memoirs I met mentions, that brigade's column was several times attacked by finnish planes from 19 to 25 august, is some information about this?
3. At night from 17 to 18 august Segerstrahle's company was attacked by partisans group near Shalgovaara and had a losses 1 KIA and 1 MIA, but I didn't fight information about partisans losses, did finns destroyed that group or partisans retreated into the forest?
4. Here http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3071525 major Pyökkimies wrote about fight at 17.08, when 5 partisans were KIA:
Toinen etenee suon "let" sanasta länteen, sen itäpuolella ja toinen sen länsipuolella ja oli heidän kohdattava toisensa suon pohjoispäässä ja palattava takaisin yhdessä suon itäpuolta. Palatessaan he löysivätkin ryssän "let" sanan ja makkaran muotoisen lammen välisestä maastosta. Syntyneessä kahakassa kaatui 5 ryssää.
, but what is word "let" and makkaran muotoisen lammen - is it designation on map or something else?
5. How many soldiers were in Alakulppi's detachment at period from 29 july to 10 august? Did they had losses near Sidra river?
6. During of the pursuing were made many photos - did it make by war reporters or only for private archives by finnish soldiers? May be somewhere full archive of photos, made during the operation? And whether there is a some video footage?
7. 18 august at morning finns organized patrols by motor boats on Elmozero, and partisans at their memoirs said, that they sunk 1 boat near place of crossing by rifle volley. In 1988 group of divers, who took part in search works, found remains, probably, of that boat. What happened with soldiers from that boat. Was vänr. Kinnarri CO of board guards in "barraks" or came on island to them on boat?
8. 18 august some partisans were KIA on west bank near "barraks" by fire from little island, but I didn't met any information, that finns found their bodies - only about 3 captured partisans and 23 bodies on east bank. May be some information at 12 brigade HQ reports?
9. How many rafts were used by partisans 24 or 32. At different sources different numbers, if 24 were found on east shore, 7 left on lake and 1 was destroyed by "Moranes" fire: 23+7+1=32? Also partisans recalled, that 1 or 2 small rafts were moved to the creek on swamp.
Thanks in advance
Last edited by igor_verh on 17 Dec 2012 16:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Grigorejev's partisan brigade

Post by Vaeltaja » 17 Dec 2012 12:01

1) Hmm... Checking the times for Helsinki and Saint Petersburg we have 2 hour difference (UTC+2 and UTC+4), Finland should have been at UTC+3 (due to DST) but the use of DST was not commonplace at the time in Finland. So 2h difference is reasonable.

2) According to FAF Situation Report for 18.8.1942 four Finnish MO (Morane) fighters were sortied for ground attack (strafing) to Jolmajärvi (Elmozero?) between 0740 and 0900 - at which time they met 4 Russian HC (Hurricanes) of which 1 was shot down without a loss. 7 (or 8) Moranes were later, 1100 - 1300, sortied to same location and tasked with protecting the ground troops. They met ~10 TH type fighters (Tomahawk) and during the air combat 1 MO was shot down but pilot bailed out safely.

4) Those are references to the maps used by the troops, since all troops had the copy of the same map they could use texts written to the map as references. The word 'let' is simply something that appears in their copy of the map and makkaran muotoisen lammen is a simply a description of how certain lake or pond appeared in the map, in this case it was 'sausage shaped pond/lake'.

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John Hilly
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Re: Grigorejev's partisan brigade

Post by John Hilly » 17 Dec 2012 13:32

Vaeltaja wrote:1) Hmm... Checking the times for Helsinki and Saint Petersburg we have 2 hour difference (UTC+2 and UTC+4), Finland should have been at UTC+3 (due to DST) but the use of DST was not commonplace at the time in Finland. So 2h difference is reasonable.
In 1942 the normal difference between Moscow Time and Helsinki Time was -1 hour. But in that summer 1942 Finland had an experimental summertime which made the difference -2 hours.
The new Moscow Time Zone is very new enterprise.

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Re: Grigorejev's partisan brigade

Post by Vaeltaja » 17 Dec 2012 14:02

Ah, sorry. I remembered that the difference had been just 1 hour was kinda surprised that turned out to be 2 when i checked it. That explains it

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Re: Grigorejev's partisan brigade

Post by igor_verh » 17 Dec 2012 16:11

Vaeltaja wrote: The word 'let' is simply something that appears in their copy of the map and makkaran muotoisen lammen is a simply a description of how certain lake or pond appeared in the map, in this case it was 'sausage shaped pond/lake'.
May be "let" is russian "летн" (part of word "summer" - summer hut) on standart 1:10000 map of that area?
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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Grigorejev's partisan brigade

Post by Juha Tompuri » 17 Dec 2012 21:08

igor_verh wrote: Some seriously wounded partisans were shot by Aristov's order.
That's sad.
So... AFAIK not all of them were killed by Finns:
Image
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1626711

Regards, Juha
Last edited by Juha Tompuri on 18 Dec 2012 08:52, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: typo corrected

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Re: Grigorejev's partisan brigade

Post by Mangrove » 20 Dec 2012 17:02

igor_verh wrote: Can somebody find reports of pilots of that finnish planes, what they wrote about fight, and what about losses from both sides. Also at partisans memoirs I met mentions, that brigade's column was several times attacked by finnish planes from 19 to 25 august, is some information about this?
I will probably have some time to dig on the air combat sorties in January. However Finnish Air Force HQ's flight summaries do not mention any ground sorties against partisans between 19 and 25 August 1942.
igor_verh wrote: 6. During of the pursuing were made many photos - did it make by war reporters or only for private archives by finnish soldiers? May be somewhere full archive of photos, made during the operation? And whether there is a some video footage?
All photographs taken by official Finnish Defence Forces' photographers are stored in an archive at Helsinki at Defence Forces Photographic Centre. All of the official film material released to public during the War has been published on DVDs during last few years but I do not recall any of them having material from this particular battle.
igor_verh wrote: 7. 18 august at morning finns organized patrols by motor boats on Elmozero, and partisans at their memoirs said, that they sunk 1 boat near place of crossing by rifle volley. In 1988 group of divers, who took part in search works, found remains, probably, of that boat. What happened with soldiers from that boat. Was vänr. Kinnarri CO of board guards in "barraks" or came on island to them on boat?
8. 18 august some partisans were KIA on west bank near "barraks" by fire from little island, but I didn't met any information, that finns found their bodies - only about 3 captured partisans and 23 bodies on east bank. May be some information at 12 brigade HQ reports?
9. How many rafts were used by partisans 24 or 32. At different sources different numbers, if 24 were found on east shore, 7 left on lake and 1 was destroyed by "Moranes" fire: 23+7+1=32? Also partisans recalled, that 1 or 2 small rafts were moved to the creek on swamp.
Thanks in advance
You can read Kinnari's report about the crossing by clicking the link. The first boat with single passenger was launched at 3.00 a.m. Finnish time. It was followed by several others. Kinnari and his men (28 in total) opened fire from a small island near the cape. Between 3 and 6 a.m., 23 boats were launched and 7 (with 40 men aboard) were destroyed by Kinnari according to his own account. There's no mention of losses by Kinnari.

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3071739

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Re: Grigorejev's partisan brigade

Post by Mangrove » 28 Dec 2012 15:25

igor_verh wrote: 2. About dogfight over Elmozero at morning 18.08.1942
1/LeLv 28 dispatched four planes to strafe enemy troops crossing the lake. Four Hurricanes were providing support to the Soviet troops. M. Leinonen (MS-619) claimed both a downed Hurricane over Lintujärvi between 7.40 and 9.00 a.m. and a damaged Hurricane at Lintujärvi between 11 a.m. and 1 p.m. and B. Eriksson (MS-314) a damaged Hurricane over Jolmajärvi between 7.40 and 9.00 a.m. From Leinonen's report:
7.40 - 9.00 a.m. Altitude 600 meters. Four Hurricanes attacked the swarm when it was strafing enemy transport barges at Jolmajärvi. I managed to shoot the first one obliquely from behind and it started to smoke heavily. At the same time another plane came obliquely towards me. I fired also at it after which it broke off smoking and hit the deck. I followed the first plane firmly while firing short bursts. The plane staggered and was out of control while loosing speed and altitude. At this time the plane was over a swampy valley at an altitude of five to six meters. From here the terrain rose to the east. The speed of the plane was then so slow that my MS could not stay behind and tended to pass it. The Hurricanes were not eager to fire from straight on but dodged in time and attempted to approach from down below. No damage. I was flying with MS-619.

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Re: Grigorejev's partisan brigade

Post by igor_verh » 24 Mar 2013 16:44

Hi! I have some new questions:
Here two pages:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3078280
On right - 3 columns, in central - KIA partisans, but on right - captured partisans? And at left page - finnish losses, what does mean digits 5444, 5445 etc, is it codes of unit?
Almost every night finnish planes conducted reconnaissance over battle area, what unit took part in flight? What types of planes were used? Also some hydroplanes were used for evacuation of finnish KIA and WIA soldiers, what unit, type?
Here mention about short airfight at night 28 July:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3071687
May be somewhere a more detailed report?
Vaeltaja wrote:They met ~10 TH type fighters (Tomahawk) and during the air combat 1 MO was shot down but pilot bailed out safely.
Same information here (18/8 at 19.00): http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3071737
But what was name of that finnish pilot - kersantti Vihinen? Coordinates, where his plane crushed? May be his memoirs about fight?
Martti Kujansuu wrote: Kinnari and his men (28 in total) opened fire from a small island near the cape. Between 3 and 6 a.m., 23 boats were launched and 7 (with 40 men aboard) were destroyed by Kinnari according to his own account. There's no mention of losses by Kinnari.
Did Kinnari served in Rj.P 5 or Rj.P 6? How I understood, on island were soldiers from different units, according war dairy of Rj.P5 from them 1 was KIA and 4 WIA(1 from 8./JR 52 and 3 from Rj.P 5).
Also I'm looking for map of fortifications in Баранова Гора - Pokonvaara (or Pekonvaara?) on south shore of Elmozero (Jolmäjärvi/Kuusijärvi) or may be a plan of this village, I found only common map of area http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3085489, but looking for more details, especially finnish guard line and minefields there:
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Re: Grigorejev's partisan brigade

Post by peeved » 24 Mar 2013 16:53

igor_verh wrote:Hi! I have some new questions:
Here two pages:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3078280
On right - 3 columns, in central - KIA partisans, but on right - captured partisans? And at left page - finnish losses, what does mean digits 5444, 5445 etc, is it codes of unit?
Yes,

They are peitelukuja (literally cover numbers) for units: For an extensive list cf. http://www.arkisto.fi/uploads/Aineistot ... 5B1%5D.pdf

Markus

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Re: Grigorejev's partisan brigade

Post by Mangrove » 24 Mar 2013 18:47

igor_verh wrote: Almost every night finnish planes conducted reconnaissance over battle area, what unit took part in flight? What types of planes were used? Also some hydroplanes were used for evacuation of finnish KIA and WIA soldiers, what unit, type?
The only Finnish fighter unit patrolling the area was Lentolaivue 28 with Morane-Saulnier 406s and 410s. Possibly some Fokker D.XXIs from Lentolaivue 14 and Brewster B-239s from Lentolaivue 24 patrolled the area occasionally. Wounded soldiers were mostly evacuated with Junkers W.34/K.43s operated by a flight from Lentolaivue 48.
igor_verh wrote: Also I'm looking for map of fortifications in Баранова Гора - Pokonvaara (or Pekonvaara?) on south shore of Elmozero (Jolmäjärvi/Kuusijärvi)
Rj.P 5 had a base called KV5 "Karhu" ["Bear"] at the location you're interested in. The crew was composed of 2½ platoons from 1./Rj.P 5 on 13 May 1942.

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3451196 - The location of Rj.P 5's bases on 13 May 1942.
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3451197 - Ibid. on 30 May 1942.

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