Finnish armor losses?

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JTV
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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by JTV » 26 Apr 2010 18:54

Martti Kujansuu wrote:A quick browsing of Ps.D's diaries provided me with these total losses. I have not included the StuG or BT-42 losses.

Date + Place + Unit + Type + Cause. Total of 19 T-26s, two DKWs, two Stalinetz, a ISU-122, a Norton, a T-34, a truck and a Zündapp.
My list from armour vehicle losses (of Armour Division and some other units, mostly based to Armour Division report listing losses) of 1944 lists:
- 6 x armoured cars
- 8 x BT-42
- 8 x Komsomolets A20
- 8 x Stu 40G
- 24 x T-26
- 1 x ISU-152

"Ps. 133" was T-26B R-133, I have the losses of 2./Ps.P in Perkjärvi listed for 15 of June. The T-34/76 that fell to channel was fished out bit later and continued to serve Finnish Army.

Jarkko

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Harri
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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by Harri » 30 Apr 2010 20:28

DKW is a medium IIRC 350cc motorbike.

http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/Bike%20Dir ... 0cc-40.jpg

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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by Vaeltaja » 02 Jul 2012 15:16

Sorry about reviving this rather old discussion but i think the questions were not really answered, and i found them rather interesting.

So does any one have numbers or know where they are for Finnish armor losses all the way from 1941 to 1944 instead of just 1944?

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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by Mangrove » 04 Jul 2012 16:38

Vaeltaja wrote: So does any one have numbers or know where they are for Finnish armor losses all the way from 1941 to 1944 instead of just 1944?
After cross-checking Kom./Ps.P's war diary and Hovilainen's book Tankkirykmentistä panssaripataljoonaan, I found following armour serving at Panssaripataljoona and later at Panssaridivisioona that were regarded as destroyed in combat from June 1941 to May 1944. Besides these there were several cases where e.g. an anti-tank gun damaged the armour and killed some of the crew but the armour could be towed and repaired.

- a BT from Ps.P at Teinilä on 4 September 1941.
- T-26 or Vickers from 3./Ps.P at Lotinapelto on 7 September 1941.
- T-26 or Vickers from 2./Ps.P at Puujoki on 23 September 1941 by Soviet 75mm AA gun.
- T-26 or Vickers from 2./Ps.P at Puujoki on 23 September 1941 by Soviet 75mm AA gun.
- Armoured car from Ps.P at Uusiselkä on 28 September 1941 by Soviet AA gun.
Last edited by Mangrove on 04 Jul 2012 18:13, edited 1 time in total.

Vaeltaja
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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by Vaeltaja » 04 Jul 2012 18:05

That is quite a bit smaller list than i thought it would have been, granted that it only includes essentially irrecoverable combat losses.

EDIT: That is i have read couple of translated versions of Soviet side narratives of the events and i did believe them to be exaggerated but to that extent...

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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by Mangrove » 04 Jul 2012 18:55

Vaeltaja wrote:That is quite a bit smaller list than i thought it would have been, granted that it only includes essentially irrecoverable combat losses.
The Finnish armour forces seems to have been kept as a reserve during the first months of the Continuation War and were only unleashed after Tuulos was crossed in September 1941. After the summer offensive ended the battalion was returned to reserve and did not see any action before June 1944 except for a small part of it in early 1942 and late 1943.

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JTV
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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by JTV » 05 Jul 2012 05:51

Vaeltaja wrote:That is quite a bit smaller list than i thought it would have been, granted that it only includes essentially irrecoverable combat losses.
There are actual Armour Division reports about its losses or armoured vehicles from year 1944, but no such reports from year 1941 or 1942. Hence it is difficult to determine which losses in 1941 - 1942 were actually irrecoverable. Martti, how did you come up with those specific vehicles being irrecoverable losses?

I have tried gathering a list of losses which contains all cases in which the vehicle either seems to have suffered significant battle damage or in which at least one crew member was wounded or killed. It's gathered from variety of sources and lists losses as:
1941:
--T-26A: 3
--All other types of T-26: 12
--BT: 2
--T-28: 3

1942:
- T-26: 4 (+2 which fell through ice but were recovered later)

1943:
- No losses

Jarkko

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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by Vaeltaja » 05 Jul 2012 09:00

That is quite a bit longer list. You wouldn't happen to have more details on those? When they occurred, where it occurred, (how it occurred,) severity of damage or other such information?

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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by Mangrove » 05 Jul 2012 12:08

JTV wrote:Martti, how did you come up with those specific vehicles being irrecoverable losses?
By account of CO Björkman, e.g.:
Kom./Ps.P: 4 September 1941
Christie-osasto joutui edetessään ankariin taisteluihin [...] menetti itse myös yhden Christie-vaunun, joka ammuttiin tuleen [...]
Panssariyksikköjen tappiot päivän aikana:
3./Ps.P: kaatuneita 1 ups., 1 mies, haavoitt. 7 miestä.
Christie-os.: kaatuneita 4 miestä, haavoitt. 1 ups., 1 sot.miest., 2 miestä. 1 Christie-vaunu tuhoutunut, 1 raskas vaurioitunut.

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JTV
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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by JTV » 05 Jul 2012 20:12

Martti Kujansuu wrote:
By account of CO Björkman, e.g.:
Kom./Ps.P: 4 September 1941
Christie-osasto joutui edetessään ankariin taisteluihin [...] menetti itse myös yhden Christie-vaunun, joka ammuttiin tuleen [...]
Panssariyksikköjen tappiot päivän aikana:
3./Ps.P: kaatuneita 1 ups., 1 mies, haavoitt. 7 miestä.
Christie-os.: kaatuneita 4 miestä, haavoitt. 1 ups., 1 sot.miest., 2 miestä. 1 Christie-vaunu tuhoutunut, 1 raskas vaurioitunut.
Yep, the particular tank was BT-7 R-100 commanded by Vänrikki Järvenpää (commander of Christie Detachment / Christie Osasto). One of the reports indicates that it got ambushed by antitank-gun, got hit several times and got set on fire. Major reason for the tank getting on fire were problems with fuel system (broken fuel pump?), due to which gasoline barrel had been placed on rear deck and apparently it got hit. Also aikersantti Pihlajamäki died inside the vehicle, private Hakala got out but didn't make it and neither did an uspecified soldier from Light Detachment 4, who died with the tank crew. What I have read suggests that burned tanks like this were usually irrecoverable losses, but I am wondering about the others. BTW: Most records seem to suggest that R-100 was destroyed during early hours of 5th of September - sometime in between midnight and 2AM.

6th Tank Co/Tank Btn war journal:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=2992716

But what about the others. The two T-26 tanks from 2nd Tank Co in 23rd of September. I see they also got on fire, what I have says that in different places and one of them was destroyed by Soviet tank, not antitank-gun. Heavy armoured car (BAF) in 28th of September in Uusiselkä - well it got on fire also. BTW: According some sources BAF belonged to 7th Armoured Car Platoon, but apparently it had already been disbanded by that time and its men and vehicles transferred to Tank Battalion.

The ones I am especially wondering are:
- T-26 (possibly R-71) from 1st Tank Co, 9th of September in Nisi, hit several times and completely destroyed.
- 2 x T-26 from 1st Tank Co, 26th of September, destroyed by BT-tanks and got on fire.

1st Tank Co war journal from 10th of September, apparently it lists T-26 tanks R-72 and R-71 simply as "tuhottu" (destroyed):
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=2991086

Jarkko

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Hanski
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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by Hanski » 19 Aug 2012 16:46

Shots of a "T-34 in action", without national insignia, in the re-enactment demonstration of the Armoured Brigade 70-year anniversary event in Parola on 28 June 2012.
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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by Mangrove » 10 Mar 2014 12:23

Mangrove wrote: - T-26 or Vickers from 2./Ps.P at Puujoki on 23 September 1941 by Soviet 75mm AA gun.
- T-26 or Vickers from 2./Ps.P at Puujoki on 23 September 1941 by Soviet 75mm AA gun.
SA-kuva 58699: "Finnish armour destroyed by an anti-aircraft gun 50 meters away". The number of the photograph suggest it was taken during late September or early October 1941.

Image

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John Hilly
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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by John Hilly » 10 Mar 2014 19:23

Totally destroyed T-26 / Vickers in Derevannoje near Petrozavodsk by AA-gun:
Image

Miracously enough no crew member died, only wounded!

With best,
J-P :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by Juha Tompuri » 19 Mar 2014 19:45

John Hilly wrote:Totally destroyed T-26 / Vickers in Derevannoje near Petrozavodsk by AA-gun
You forgot to post the source of that photo.
Sauli Häkkinen book Jotakin ehkä tietäisin...?

Regards, Juha

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John Hilly
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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by John Hilly » 20 Mar 2014 19:05

Sorry. I haven't the book at hand right now, but Häkkinen's book it is.
Published by Ilmatorjuntasäätiö.

With best,
J-P :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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