Questions about Hungarian volunteers for Finland 1939-1940

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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Harri
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Post by Harri » 14 Jun 2003 20:34

Csaba Becze wrote:Well, you know, some old Hungarian sources wrote Pirity's name as 'Pirithy' also, but the good one is Mátyás Pirity.
Actually I have faced similar kind of variations with the names of my relatives. There are three different versions of the same surname: one is written in a Finnish way, one probably in a Swedish way and one most likely is a spelling error... :lol:
Csaba Becze wrote:About the first names: maybe Finnish used the German form? (Mátyás - Matthias, Vilmos - Wilhelm) Maybe the volunteers used the German form in Finland also (for the easier intelligibility)
That sounds reasonable explanation.

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Post by gabriel pagliarani » 14 Jun 2003 23:29

Harri wrote:
gabriel pagliarani wrote:Nice pics about G50 (...Bis, I presume..)
Finnish FIAT G.50s were not improved "bis" models.
gabriel pagliarani wrote:May the 2nd plane behind enginer's shoulders be a Morane Saulnier?
Correct. It is Morane-Saulnier M.S.406 fighter.
gabriel pagliarani wrote:Can someone explain me why Hungary and Finland were considered sister countries by propaganda? I understand words like friend, comrade or alley but "sister" is a too much adherent term. Why?
It is not propaganda. Finnish and Hungarian languages belong to the same Finno-Ugrig language group and we consider ourselves the relative nations together also with Estonians.
Effectively G50 bis had improved self-locking fuel tanks ( ...a gadget as much up-to-date as useful..) and an improved range. About hydraulic fluid I have some doubts about ricin oil, that it was used mainly as lubricant mixed directly to fuel in the attempt to save piston wearing and avoiding sudden grips. This kind of oil was just used on GP 2 strokes engines of bikes before new synthetic lubricants during '70s. Hydraulic fluid for changing angle to the blades of propeller was hydraulical oil featuring extremely low compressibility (very similar to actual DOT brake fluids) At that time those hydraulical fluids had an high % content of water, therefore could be easily frozen at -20°C. Soviets had the same problem but they solved by mean of animal oil (from wales?). In Italy there was no kind of such oil. And what about Morane Saulniers? Those planes had to be filled with the same fluids of G-50 plus glycholethanol for the cooling system. Magyarorsag, Suomi, Eesti are sister nations. OK!

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 15 Jun 2003 00:10

gabriel pagliarani wrote:About hydraulic fluid I have some doubts about ricin oil, that it was used mainly as lubricant mixed directly to fuel in the attempt to save piston wearing and avoiding sudden grips. This kind of oil was just used on GP 2 strokes engines of bikes before new synthetic lubricants during '70s.
I know but for example Finnish Air Force History by Keskinen and Stenman says that the hydraulics oil used in FIAT G.50 was really ricin oil. Ricin oil jams (<- note again! :D ) at about -15 to -20 degrees C. In hot conditions it was not a problem and G.50 was developed for hot conditions. The use of ricin oil was a great surprise to Finns and I think Italian and Finnish mechanics solved these problems eventually together. Italians were led by (Eng.)Capt. Luigi Pelli (It is a funny coincidence but his last name could be also Finnish one :) ).
gabriel pagliarani wrote:Hydraulic fluid for changing angle to the blades of propeller was hydraulical oil featuring extremely low compressibility (very similar to actual DOT brake fluids) At that time those hydraulical fluids had an high % content of water, therefore could be easily frozen at -20°C.
Ricin oil is just similar. I think in this case water was not the problem.
gabriel pagliarani wrote:Soviets had the same problem but they solved by mean of animal oil (from wales?). In Italy there was no kind of such oil. And what about Morane Saulniers? Those planes had to be filled with the same fluids of G-50 plus glycholethanol for the cooling system.
MS didn't suffer from any freezing problems in Finland so the they didn't have same fluids. Or maybe the French had more experince in operating in extreme coldness?

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Post by gabriel pagliarani » 15 Jun 2003 17:57

..other sources surely :idea: ..ricin is a vegetable living in Mediterranean and I don't know if there were ricin plantations in France. I have heard about new soviet Ratas having fixed pitch propellers from factory then sent in Winter War solving the same problem in the easier way: no pitch adjustement, as in WW1! Obviously that mad attempt was a failure: the lost of performances during dogfights was decisive. Finally they solved the problem with "spermaceti" oil. Obviously the only "sperm whale" ever seen in Italy was that swallowed Pinocchio. :roll: The lack of such an oil was a never solved problem for Regia Aeronautica. Hydraulically powered gun-turrets on Piaggio P-108 4-engines never worked correctly because external temperature at 30000 ft could be easily less than -50°C. No spermaceti = no gun turrets. How many italians were there during Winter War?

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 15 Jun 2003 21:12

Hi Gabriel,

From a Finnish source, I found the following names. They all came "with" the G.50 planes.

Mechanicans:
- Elio Baldassari
- Enrico Bartolini
- Gentile (Gentilo?) Benedetto
- Ettore Cavallini
- Luigi Capurro
- Pante (Dante?) Gaggio
- Michele Morelli
- Capt Luigi Pelli ( as Harri has posted, the commander of the mechanicans)
- ? Pellini
- Gino Pieroni (Peroni?)
- Bruno Puschi
- Ugo Sabattini
- ? Ogliano(?)
- ? Passeri (Trollhättan)
- ? Ramella (Trollhättan)

Pilots:
-Sergeant Diego Manzocchi (died at combat 11th March-40. About 20km
where I live. He is buried at Hietaniemi military cemetery at
Helsinki I´ve once visited (as part of a delegation) his grave)
- Lieutenant Carlo Cugnasca (test pilot at Trollhättan, Sweden)
- Capt. Bianchi (Trollhättan)

Staff:
Lt. Col Giuseppe Casero
Sgt. Maj Orlando Pagliarini (Bagliarini?)

Regards, Juha
Last edited by Juha Tompuri on 16 Jun 2003 23:53, edited 3 times in total.

gabriel pagliarani
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Post by gabriel pagliarani » 15 Jun 2003 22:19

I'll try to search any available info about them on AMI files. Oberfeldwebel Orlando Pagliarini was not a member of my own family. I am happy to know about your lovely care of italian graves: they rest far from home among nice friends. Thank you, Juha.

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 15 Jun 2003 23:13

Sgt Manzocchi was very respected pilot here.
Here is some more about him:
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1034949175

Regards, Juha

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 Jun 2003 00:05

Some info about Hungarian volunteer pilots Pirity and Bekassy (not much):
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... =973184787

Regards, Juha

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Post by zsepi » 16 Jun 2003 10:30

As i remember the hungarian volunteers called SUSI batallion and there were a document film about them in the hungarian television some years ago.
zsepi

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 16 Jun 2003 22:33

Zsepi, You are more likely talking about Detachment SISU [guts], not susi [wolf]...

As far as know Diego Manzocchi's rank in Finland was Staff Sergeant [ylikersantti] not Sergeant. He really was ranked a top pilot of all foreign volunteers in Finland. I understand that he had flown in Abyssinia and Spanish Civil War. I thought he choked in deep flush because the cabin of FIAT was open. (Source: Eino Ritaranta / Finnish Aviation History Magazine (SIL) 1/96.)

Also most Danish were liked in their units and they suffered heavily. So far I have not heard much of Hungarians.

Thanks Juha. Interesting stuff, I'll use some piece of it also on my net page. This is again off topic but do you know any other test pilots at Bulltofta? I asked about two French names (Etienne and Sabary) but I think no one has yet answered...

BTW do you know/remember what was the rank of Brewster test pilot Robert Winston in 1940 and after war?

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 Jun 2003 23:26

Harri,

You are right about the rank of D. Manzocchi.
I have described his last moments here: http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1035057367 . He died because of his chest (lung) wound and for being head down too long.
Nearly forgot: There is a amateur video document about D. Manzocchi. (Fin only :( )
I´m a member of http://personal.inet.fi/yhdistys/kymenl ... /index.htm (mainly Fin :( )
and we have made these:
http://personal.inet.fi/yhdistys/kymenl ... lomake.htm
(under "videokasetit", 12th from the top, Fin only :( )

I´ve read about Capt. Etienne, but my prime source (Parolasta Pyhäniemeen by Ahti Saarinen, doesn`t mention Sabary. He however mentions few mechanicans)

According to the same book Robert Winston was liutenant 1940 and there is also a pic of him at F6F Hellcat (?) with writing "LT. CDR. R.A. WINSTON under his cockpit.

Regards, Juha

P.S. please inform us when your net page is ready :)

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Csaba Becze
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Post by Csaba Becze » 17 Jun 2003 17:35

Hi guys,

What was the LeLv 26's exact Finnish name and short form?
Hävittäjälentolaivue 26 and the exact short form is HaLeLv 26?

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Hanski
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Post by Hanski » 17 Jun 2003 17:55

Csaba Becze wrote:Hi guys,

What was the LeLv 26's exact Finnish name and short form?
Hävittäjälentolaivue 26 and the exact short form is HaLeLv 26?
Hävittäjälentolaivue 26 is correct precisely as you wrote it, but the abbreviated form is HLeLv 26.


hävittäjä = fighter
lento = flight
laivue = squadron


Cheers,
Hanski

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Csaba Becze
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Post by Csaba Becze » 17 Jun 2003 22:27

Ok, thx Hanski.

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 18 Jun 2003 19:00

hmononen wrote:
Csaba Becze wrote:What was the LeLv 26's exact Finnish name and short form? Hävittäjälentolaivue 26 and the exact short form is HaLeLv 26?
Hävittäjälentolaivue 26 is correct precisely as you wrote it, but the abbreviated form is HLeLv 26.
Hanski is on the right tracks but to be quite precise the correct abbreviation of the Finnish Flying Squadron between 1939 - 3.5.1942 was:
LLv. = Lentolaivue [Flying Squadron]
- since 3.5.1942:
Le.Lv. = Lentolaivue [Flying Squadron]
- since 14.2.1944:
HLe.Lv. = Hävittäjälentolaivue [Fighter Squadron]
PLe.Lv. = Pommituslentoleivue [Bomber Squadron]
TLe.Lv. = Tiedustelulentolaivue [Reconnaissance Squadron]

So, before 3.5.1942 the "name" of the squadron didn't tell the type of the squadron but the first squadron number digit indicated into which regiment the squadron belonged. During Winter War there was no need for other names because fighters, bombers and recon planes had a flying regiments of their own. At the beginning of the Continuation War regiments were mixed until 3.5.1942 when they became regional (except Flying Regiment 4 which was a bomber regiment). When also recon squadrons were partly equipped with fighter aircraft the names of the squadrons were enhanced again in winter 1944.

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