hmononen, glad to help, in Mr Wolf Zoepf's "Seven days in January", page 46, note 3:
"Fortunately for the surving members of NORD(and the memories of those who had passed on), vindicating evidence came to light more than fifty-two years after the tragedy at Rovaniemi. In the spate of veterans' publications in connection to the fiftieth anniversary of the war's end. Erkki Kerojarvi, a former Finnish Army sergeant, finally explained the genesis of the incident. in his memory, Vedin Miekalla Paasikiven Linja (I defended Paasikivi's line with the sword) (Helsinki: Omakirja Oy, Hameenlinna 1989), he explains that his commando unit infiltrated into Rovaniemi on 13 Oct 1944, and destroyed the German ammunition train on the siding at the station. In explicit detail, Kerojarvi conveys the full story of the destruction of train, and its unintended consequences for the buildings in Rovaniemi.
hmononen, I am certainly no in the position to judge credibiliy of this claim, may be you could check out by yourself ? But this claim actually told us two things
1, the destroying of Rovaniemi was destroyed by Finnish army unit by accident
2. and after that the whole mission was cover up, either by this commando unit itself, or by Finnish govement.
The Finnish-German Lapland War (15) Sep 1944 - 27 Apr 1945
From book Jatkosota kronikka (Chronicle of Continuation War):
10. october 1944:
German commander Rendulic announced in letter, which he does send to Finns 9th october, that all buildings owned by State will be burnt down in Rovaniemi as revenge because of Finnish defence forces "low and unhonour actions".
Next day Germans starts the burn down operation. Germans does burn down all buildings which are enough big and looks like state buildings (also some private houses). Fire speads also because of explosion of ammo train.
So looks like Rendulic has "forgot" some facts about his actions in Rovaniemi, if Chronicle´s information is correct.
Germans have turn down few times the demands of paying for destruction of Lapland, last time few years ago when Finnish president did visit there and Helmut Kohl was still on power and press asked about Lapland. Or then it was last time asked from G. Schröder, can´t remember exactly. Anyway, topic is still actual sometimes. As well Karelia question for Russians.
10. october 1944:
German commander Rendulic announced in letter, which he does send to Finns 9th october, that all buildings owned by State will be burnt down in Rovaniemi as revenge because of Finnish defence forces "low and unhonour actions".
Next day Germans starts the burn down operation. Germans does burn down all buildings which are enough big and looks like state buildings (also some private houses). Fire speads also because of explosion of ammo train.
So looks like Rendulic has "forgot" some facts about his actions in Rovaniemi, if Chronicle´s information is correct.
Germans have turn down few times the demands of paying for destruction of Lapland, last time few years ago when Finnish president did visit there and Helmut Kohl was still on power and press asked about Lapland. Or then it was last time asked from G. Schröder, can´t remember exactly. Anyway, topic is still actual sometimes. As well Karelia question for Russians.
Mars, did Mr Zoepf write that Sergeant Kerojärvi also claimed he and his unit burned down the whole town?
The conclusions presented are false:
1. Even if Sgt Kerojärvi's unit exploded an ammo train, that does not mean he takes responsibility for burning down the borough of Rovaniemi to the extent that really happened. As I have mentioned, it is against the laws of physics to attribute such widespread destruction by fire - on both sides of the Kemijoki river - to a single site of explosions. A unit of no army can cause such destruction in a large area by accident, it has to be organised activity.
2. Such cover up would have been impossible for a number of reasons. Besides any commando unit, Rovaniemi was taken by the Finnish main forces who eyewitnessed the borough aflame. Soon they were followed by more troops and civilians, and there is no doubt they could see how the destruction was caused. Finland was a democratic country even at wartime - it would have been impossible to order any military unit to lie collectively, and against the national character to obey such an order.
In my opinion, there is no contradict between an explosion of an ammo train and the deliberate and extensive burn down operation of Rovaniemi at the order of Generaloberst Lothar Rendulic, like in Antti V's quotation above of the Chronicle of Continuation War. For some reason, Colonel General Rendulic seems unwilling to take the responsibility, although from his point of view it was perfectly logical to use scorched eath tactics.
The Finnish-German Lapland War is mostly a "forgotten war" which is seldom mentioned in histories of WWII. It did not involve Allied powers (who have largely dictated all the publicity after the war) except the Soviet Union, whose demand it originally was. Maybe it wasn't so dramatic and decisive as other phases of WWII. Finland's survival was not directly at stake, like when defending against the strategic offensives ot Yosif Stalin's Red Army in the Winter War and the Continuation War June-July 1944.
The Western Allies were busy racing for Berlin, while Lapland War was fought in a remote corner of Europe that few have visited - hence the lack if interest.
For the German troops, it was mainly retreating to Norway, chased by the former Waffenbrüder. For the Finns, it was a necessity dictated by the U.S.S.R. and the troops involved were the youngest conscripts - hence Colonel Halsti calls it by the nickname "Children's Crusade". The battle-hardened Finnish troops had been dismantled according to the armistice terms and did not participate.
But I think this unknown war deserves study and discussion, and I am very grateful for this excellent forum for the opportunity. It is also delightful to see how many visitors this discussion has scored so far in a short time. Please keep contributing to it.
Hanski,
(born at Ivalo and lived in Rovaniemi for nearly 20 years)
P.S. Combrig, I believe you are right in that Puolustusvoimat ("defence forces") was officially called Puolustuslaitos (literally, "institution for defence") before and during the war. Even today, the Frontier Guards are officially called Rajavartiolaitos (literally, "institution of frontier guard").
The conclusions presented are false:
1. Even if Sgt Kerojärvi's unit exploded an ammo train, that does not mean he takes responsibility for burning down the borough of Rovaniemi to the extent that really happened. As I have mentioned, it is against the laws of physics to attribute such widespread destruction by fire - on both sides of the Kemijoki river - to a single site of explosions. A unit of no army can cause such destruction in a large area by accident, it has to be organised activity.
2. Such cover up would have been impossible for a number of reasons. Besides any commando unit, Rovaniemi was taken by the Finnish main forces who eyewitnessed the borough aflame. Soon they were followed by more troops and civilians, and there is no doubt they could see how the destruction was caused. Finland was a democratic country even at wartime - it would have been impossible to order any military unit to lie collectively, and against the national character to obey such an order.
In my opinion, there is no contradict between an explosion of an ammo train and the deliberate and extensive burn down operation of Rovaniemi at the order of Generaloberst Lothar Rendulic, like in Antti V's quotation above of the Chronicle of Continuation War. For some reason, Colonel General Rendulic seems unwilling to take the responsibility, although from his point of view it was perfectly logical to use scorched eath tactics.
The Finnish-German Lapland War is mostly a "forgotten war" which is seldom mentioned in histories of WWII. It did not involve Allied powers (who have largely dictated all the publicity after the war) except the Soviet Union, whose demand it originally was. Maybe it wasn't so dramatic and decisive as other phases of WWII. Finland's survival was not directly at stake, like when defending against the strategic offensives ot Yosif Stalin's Red Army in the Winter War and the Continuation War June-July 1944.
The Western Allies were busy racing for Berlin, while Lapland War was fought in a remote corner of Europe that few have visited - hence the lack if interest.
For the German troops, it was mainly retreating to Norway, chased by the former Waffenbrüder. For the Finns, it was a necessity dictated by the U.S.S.R. and the troops involved were the youngest conscripts - hence Colonel Halsti calls it by the nickname "Children's Crusade". The battle-hardened Finnish troops had been dismantled according to the armistice terms and did not participate.
But I think this unknown war deserves study and discussion, and I am very grateful for this excellent forum for the opportunity. It is also delightful to see how many visitors this discussion has scored so far in a short time. Please keep contributing to it.
Hanski,
(born at Ivalo and lived in Rovaniemi for nearly 20 years)
P.S. Combrig, I believe you are right in that Puolustusvoimat ("defence forces") was officially called Puolustuslaitos (literally, "institution for defence") before and during the war. Even today, the Frontier Guards are officially called Rajavartiolaitos (literally, "institution of frontier guard").
hmononen: I do not know Finnish, so I could not read Sergeant Kerojärvi's book, but since in his book,Sergeant Kerojärvi "conveys the full story of the destruction of train, and its unintended consequences for the buildings in Rovaniemi. " I guess he did claim it was his commando unit who should take reponsibility to destroy the Rovaniemi. his unit must have reported this mission to superior,and since most of Finnish people like do not know this fact until today, it must be somehow cover up, 1 plus 1 equal to 2, right ?
Again I am not in any position the judge the credibility of Segeant Kerojarvi's story.
Again I am not in any position the judge the credibility of Segeant Kerojarvi's story.
Mars, I am sorry, but exploding an ammo train in a railyard and burning down every single house kilometers away from the railyard are two different things indeed, regardless of what any individual may claim. I believe Sgt Kerojärvi may be correct about having blown up the train, but it cannot have been the cause of burning down the whole borough. I do not believe conspiracy theories can explain anything, because they cannot cover up something that would be completely against the laws of physics.
Now there seem to be so far three versions of "alternative explanations" to the most likely cause of Rovaniemi burning down nearly completely.
The alternatives presented are:
1. The established Finnish war history, also presented in Marshal Mannerheim's memoirs: it was the order of Generaloberst Lothar Rendulic.
2. In the message of Bjorn from Norway, from the story written by Franz Schreiber: parts of the town centre started burning for an unknown reason, fire then spread to an ammo train, and the explosions then burned down Rovaniemi.
3. In the messages of mars, 6 th SS "Nord" division veteran Wolf T. Zoepf quotes a story by Sgt Erkki Kerojärvi, which is said to be told also in his self-published book: a Finnish commando unit blew up the ammo train, and the explosions then burned down Rovaniemi.
Pick whichever you believe to be most credible explanation, bearing in mind that ruins of burnt down houses with chimneys standing were found within a radius of several kilometers from the railyard, on both sides of the Kemijoki river, as well as burnt down ski jump towers, and mines were laid to slow the advance of the Finnish troops.
Maps of present-day Rovaniemi can be found in several websites of the Internet, but of course the inhabited area was much less in 1944 than today, as the population was less than 20.000 then (currently about 40.000). Also, the location of the railway station was more central then. But the rivers Kemijoki and Ounasjoki were the same, and if you think that houses on Ounasvaara mountain were burnt, make your own conclusions about could they have been burnt by an explosion in the centre.
Hanski
Now there seem to be so far three versions of "alternative explanations" to the most likely cause of Rovaniemi burning down nearly completely.
The alternatives presented are:
1. The established Finnish war history, also presented in Marshal Mannerheim's memoirs: it was the order of Generaloberst Lothar Rendulic.
2. In the message of Bjorn from Norway, from the story written by Franz Schreiber: parts of the town centre started burning for an unknown reason, fire then spread to an ammo train, and the explosions then burned down Rovaniemi.
3. In the messages of mars, 6 th SS "Nord" division veteran Wolf T. Zoepf quotes a story by Sgt Erkki Kerojärvi, which is said to be told also in his self-published book: a Finnish commando unit blew up the ammo train, and the explosions then burned down Rovaniemi.
Pick whichever you believe to be most credible explanation, bearing in mind that ruins of burnt down houses with chimneys standing were found within a radius of several kilometers from the railyard, on both sides of the Kemijoki river, as well as burnt down ski jump towers, and mines were laid to slow the advance of the Finnish troops.
Maps of present-day Rovaniemi can be found in several websites of the Internet, but of course the inhabited area was much less in 1944 than today, as the population was less than 20.000 then (currently about 40.000). Also, the location of the railway station was more central then. But the rivers Kemijoki and Ounasjoki were the same, and if you think that houses on Ounasvaara mountain were burnt, make your own conclusions about could they have been burnt by an explosion in the centre.
Hanski
Modern day roadmap of the areahmononen wrote: Maps of present-day Rovaniemi can be found in several websites of the Internet, but of course the inhabited area was much less in 1944 than today, as the population was less than 20.000 then (currently about 40.000). Also, the location of the railway station was more central then. But the rivers Kemijoki and Ounasjoki were the same, and if you think that houses on Ounasvaara mountain were burnt, make your own conclusions about could they have been burnt by an explosion in the centre.
Hanski
http://www.tiehallinto.fi/kartta/at28p2.htm
note the location of Ounasvaara (of which hmononen talks about) which was also burnt down.
http://www.pm-netti.com/lapin_kartta/rovaniemi/
Note the width of the rivers. The houses were burnt everywhere in the area of Rovaniemi. (Keep in mind though that the inhabitated area was smaller then).
Thank you, Sami_K, for providing the maps.
If you look at the map of the city centre to get the most accurate scale,
http://www.pm-netti.com/lapin_kartta/ro ... kusta.html
then in the middle of the map you see the yellow Highway Number 4 (“Valtatie No 4”). Wartime Rovaniemi railway station was located about where that highway goes now, about where the crossing streets “Ainonkatu” and “Ruokasenkatu” would meet it (but today, the highway lies on a lower level, with bridges crossing over it).
In fact, the old name “Ratantaus” is still there for historical reasons to designate a certain part of town. In the Lappish dialect of the Finnish language, it means “what lies beyond the railway”, as seen from the traditional town centre – although today, there is no railway nearby at all! Today’s railway goes much more to the south, designated by the grey east-west line below “Jorma Eton tie” and expanding into a railway yard near the present day station, the black box on “Postikatu” beside the railyard.
Now, if you think of the old location of Rovaniemi railway station, and click the map to see a larger view at
http://www.pm-netti.com/lapin_kartta/ro ... lansi.html
would you think the houses at the town areas of Viirinkangas, Rantavitikka or Korvanniemi were burned due to the alleged explosions of an ammo train in the town centre? Would you think those explosions caused the burning of a large ski jump tower on Pöyliövaara, a mountain to the south from Rovaniemi?
Hanski
If you look at the map of the city centre to get the most accurate scale,
http://www.pm-netti.com/lapin_kartta/ro ... kusta.html
then in the middle of the map you see the yellow Highway Number 4 (“Valtatie No 4”). Wartime Rovaniemi railway station was located about where that highway goes now, about where the crossing streets “Ainonkatu” and “Ruokasenkatu” would meet it (but today, the highway lies on a lower level, with bridges crossing over it).
In fact, the old name “Ratantaus” is still there for historical reasons to designate a certain part of town. In the Lappish dialect of the Finnish language, it means “what lies beyond the railway”, as seen from the traditional town centre – although today, there is no railway nearby at all! Today’s railway goes much more to the south, designated by the grey east-west line below “Jorma Eton tie” and expanding into a railway yard near the present day station, the black box on “Postikatu” beside the railyard.
Now, if you think of the old location of Rovaniemi railway station, and click the map to see a larger view at
http://www.pm-netti.com/lapin_kartta/ro ... lansi.html
would you think the houses at the town areas of Viirinkangas, Rantavitikka or Korvanniemi were burned due to the alleged explosions of an ammo train in the town centre? Would you think those explosions caused the burning of a large ski jump tower on Pöyliövaara, a mountain to the south from Rovaniemi?
Hanski
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Juha Hujanen
- Member
- Posts: 2196
- Joined: 20 Mar 2002, 12:32
- Location: Suur-Savo,Finland
Hello Hanski and others.Most likely destruction of Rovaniemi was mix of deliberate German scorched earth policy and explosion of munitionstrain by Finns.On 9.October pioneer commander of 20th Gebirgsarmee General Wuerst gave order that public buildings like postal,government and railway stations should be demolish.Hospitals should be left intact.On 13th same month he gave order that all buildings suitable for shelter should be destroy.Even barns.
Finnish soldier J.H.Palokangas who was member of Jaegerbattalion 3,was caught as pow at start of hostilities.To save his life he volunteered to German army and he was in Rovaniemi when it was destroyed.He said they were given map of areas that they were forbitten to enter.They were:area around Osuusliike Lapinmaa,hotel Pohjanhovi and area of bridge over Kemijoki.Then pioneer came and advised them to take shelter because Lapinmaa building was about to be demolish.That and Pohjanhovi was demolished.Then he says that he was knocked out by huge explosion from railwaystation.Men and horses ran away from station in panic and MP closed the streets.Ambulances and trucks with firehoses drive to station.Burning debris from train was thrown around and building in station were on fire.Strong wind was blowing from station towards town and fire spread fast.Men with hoses and buckets tried fight the fire but it still spread fast.
Germans started to burn their barracks 7th October and propably fire was spread to other buildings too.Then pioneers from Corps started to blown stone buildings but explosion of munitionstrain was not planned by Germans.It did have 40 tons of artillery and mortar shells,shells to lightpistol and mines.It caused casualties to Germans and started a big fire.
Propably Germans would have burned Rovaniemi anyway but destruction of town was done by German demolitions and expolosition of train.Finns discovered that many surviving buildings were mined and c.30 soldiers were killed or wounted by mines in 3 days when Finns came to town.
Rovaniemi had c.1000 buildings before destruction.After that there were 17 buildings in middletown,25 in Sahanperä,8 in Pullinpuolella and 3 in Kirkkokankaalla.No wonder that town was called "piipuniemi"(pipecape) after war.
Sources:KT 10/79,10/73,5/65,Tuntematon Sota,Suomi Taisteli 6.
Regards Juha
Finnish soldier J.H.Palokangas who was member of Jaegerbattalion 3,was caught as pow at start of hostilities.To save his life he volunteered to German army and he was in Rovaniemi when it was destroyed.He said they were given map of areas that they were forbitten to enter.They were:area around Osuusliike Lapinmaa,hotel Pohjanhovi and area of bridge over Kemijoki.Then pioneer came and advised them to take shelter because Lapinmaa building was about to be demolish.That and Pohjanhovi was demolished.Then he says that he was knocked out by huge explosion from railwaystation.Men and horses ran away from station in panic and MP closed the streets.Ambulances and trucks with firehoses drive to station.Burning debris from train was thrown around and building in station were on fire.Strong wind was blowing from station towards town and fire spread fast.Men with hoses and buckets tried fight the fire but it still spread fast.
Germans started to burn their barracks 7th October and propably fire was spread to other buildings too.Then pioneers from Corps started to blown stone buildings but explosion of munitionstrain was not planned by Germans.It did have 40 tons of artillery and mortar shells,shells to lightpistol and mines.It caused casualties to Germans and started a big fire.
Propably Germans would have burned Rovaniemi anyway but destruction of town was done by German demolitions and expolosition of train.Finns discovered that many surviving buildings were mined and c.30 soldiers were killed or wounted by mines in 3 days when Finns came to town.
Rovaniemi had c.1000 buildings before destruction.After that there were 17 buildings in middletown,25 in Sahanperä,8 in Pullinpuolella and 3 in Kirkkokankaalla.No wonder that town was called "piipuniemi"(pipecape) after war.
Sources:KT 10/79,10/73,5/65,Tuntematon Sota,Suomi Taisteli 6.
Regards Juha
Can't argue that.Juha Hujanen wrote:Hello Hanski and others.Most likely destruction of Rovaniemi was mix of deliberate German scorched earth policy and explosion of munitionstrain by Finns.
.....
Regards Juha
No-way was the widespread devastation caused by the munitions train alone, but of course it did cause considerable damage.
Cheers,
Sami
-
Bjørn from Norway
- In memoriam
- Posts: 1091
- Joined: 29 Apr 2002, 21:38
- Location: Bodø¸, Northern Norway
- Contact:
Hello!
Well, I must say this is indeed a very interesting topic, at least to us "up here"!!
Dear "hmononen": during the continuation war, about 1800 Norwegians fought in Finland / Carelia. Even the Legion, that ended up i Leningrad, volunteered with Finland as its real aim. If you ever go to Normajärvi, there is a memory stone for the 196 that were killed.
Are you aware that there even were a few Finns in SS-Div 6? Who participated in the clashes with Finnish Forces? My old class mate, who now works at the Mannerheim Museum did not know.
I spoke yesterday to a friend who was in the area, and tod him about this discussion on the Forum. He said: "Finnish artillery was closing up, but I believe it was the fire who made the train explode. I saw dead Germans after the explosion. Close to the station there was a big storage of butter. (!). It did smell melting butter all around the town. It could never have been the Germans that started the fire!"
A tragedy anyway.
B.
Well, I must say this is indeed a very interesting topic, at least to us "up here"!!
Dear "hmononen": during the continuation war, about 1800 Norwegians fought in Finland / Carelia. Even the Legion, that ended up i Leningrad, volunteered with Finland as its real aim. If you ever go to Normajärvi, there is a memory stone for the 196 that were killed.
Are you aware that there even were a few Finns in SS-Div 6? Who participated in the clashes with Finnish Forces? My old class mate, who now works at the Mannerheim Museum did not know.
I spoke yesterday to a friend who was in the area, and tod him about this discussion on the Forum. He said: "Finnish artillery was closing up, but I believe it was the fire who made the train explode. I saw dead Germans after the explosion. Close to the station there was a big storage of butter. (!). It did smell melting butter all around the town. It could never have been the Germans that started the fire!"
A tragedy anyway.
B.
Thank you, Bjorn, for providing information on issues that I have been completely ignorant of. Those 1800 Norwegians in Karelia: did they join a Wehrmacht or a Waffen-SS unit, or were some of them in the ranks of the Finnish army? What was the fate of those who survived after the armistice with the U.S.S.R.?
I believe it is known that there were some Finns fighting on the German side in Lapland war.
It is interesting, indeed, to learn completely new things about the history of my former home town.
You wrote:
----
There is indeed the "Deutsches Soldatenfriedhof" at Norvajärvi, clearly marked with road signs some kilometers to the north from Rovaniemi. I remember when it was founded in the early 1960's, the local communists from Rovaniemi arranged a demonstration against it, of course utilising it for their propaganda purposes, but it was built despite that.
I remember having moved around the Rovaniemi airport surroundings some years later with my pals, and we came across an open field with graves in rows dug open - apparently the remains from a German cemetery there had been transferred to the Norvajärvi chapel. We could still find small bones around the graves, from fingers or toes, and of course this was most exciting for teenagers then. We could also occasionally find small objects like coins with the German eagle and swastika on them.
The reason why we repeatedly visited the airport surroundings was the fact that plenty of German ammunition had been blown up there, and all of the cordite had not burned, but you could pick it up from the ground in small pieces that were either in lumps or looked like grey sticks of spaghetti. We boys used it later for home-made rockets or bombs. Also, plenty of dud artillery shells were scattered in the terrain, some quite rusty.
The airport has two runways crossing in a straight angle, and to the west from the crossing there was a straight row of bomb pits, which was clearly visible still in the 1960's. I believe it was not a result of any aerial bombardment, but of demolition by exploding of Luftwaffe bombs on the ground.
Hanski
I believe it is known that there were some Finns fighting on the German side in Lapland war.
It is interesting, indeed, to learn completely new things about the history of my former home town.
You wrote:
And Juha Hujanen wrote:Close to the station there was a big storage of butter. (!). It did smell melting butter all around the town.
My guess is that these facts are related. Osuusliike Lapinmaa was a gross co-operative store near the railway station, with large amounts of foodstuffs stored for delivery to retail shops. When Lapinmaa blew up, obviously packages of butter must have spread with the explosion!"Finnish soldier J.H.Palokangas who was member of Jaegerbattalion 3,was caught as pow at start of hostilities.To save his life he volunteered to German army and he was in Rovaniemi when it was destroyed.He said they were given map of areas that they were forbitten to enter.They were:area around Osuusliike Lapinmaa,hotel Pohjanhovi and area of bridge over Kemijoki.Then pioneer came and advised them to take shelter because Lapinmaa building was about to be demolished."
----
There is indeed the "Deutsches Soldatenfriedhof" at Norvajärvi, clearly marked with road signs some kilometers to the north from Rovaniemi. I remember when it was founded in the early 1960's, the local communists from Rovaniemi arranged a demonstration against it, of course utilising it for their propaganda purposes, but it was built despite that.
I remember having moved around the Rovaniemi airport surroundings some years later with my pals, and we came across an open field with graves in rows dug open - apparently the remains from a German cemetery there had been transferred to the Norvajärvi chapel. We could still find small bones around the graves, from fingers or toes, and of course this was most exciting for teenagers then. We could also occasionally find small objects like coins with the German eagle and swastika on them.
The reason why we repeatedly visited the airport surroundings was the fact that plenty of German ammunition had been blown up there, and all of the cordite had not burned, but you could pick it up from the ground in small pieces that were either in lumps or looked like grey sticks of spaghetti. We boys used it later for home-made rockets or bombs. Also, plenty of dud artillery shells were scattered in the terrain, some quite rusty.
The airport has two runways crossing in a straight angle, and to the west from the crossing there was a straight row of bomb pits, which was clearly visible still in the 1960's. I believe it was not a result of any aerial bombardment, but of demolition by exploding of Luftwaffe bombs on the ground.
Hanski
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Juha Tompuri
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 11563
- Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
- Location: Mylsä
At first, I would like to make some corrections, according to my source (Suomi Sodassa).
THE train was loaded with 400 t of ammunition.
9th oct gen Rendulic gave orders to destroy state buildings.
11th oct gen Wuerst gave orders to destroy all public buildings.
13th oct gen Wuerst gave orders to destroy all buildings suitable for shelter.
I see no reasons why the troops of the 2nd batt of SS-Geb Jg Rgt 12 (which was the last german unit to leave Rovaniemi, AFAIK) would not have obeyed the orders.
Juha T
THE train was loaded with 400 t of ammunition.
9th oct gen Rendulic gave orders to destroy state buildings.
11th oct gen Wuerst gave orders to destroy all public buildings.
13th oct gen Wuerst gave orders to destroy all buildings suitable for shelter.
I see no reasons why the troops of the 2nd batt of SS-Geb Jg Rgt 12 (which was the last german unit to leave Rovaniemi, AFAIK) would not have obeyed the orders.
Juha T
Bjørn from Norway wrote:Hello!
Well, I must say this is indeed a very interesting topic, at least to us "up here"!!
Dear "hmononen": during the continuation war, about 1800 Norwegians fought in Finland / Carelia. Even the Legion, that ended up i Leningrad, volunteered with Finland as its real aim. If you ever go to Normajärvi, there is a memory stone for the 196 that were killed.
Are you aware that there even were a few Finns in SS-Div 6? Who participated in the clashes with Finnish Forces? My old class mate, who now works at the Mannerheim Museum did not know.
I spoke yesterday to a friend who was in the area, and tod him about this discussion on the Forum. He said: "Finnish artillery was closing up, but I believe it was the fire who made the train explode. I saw dead Germans after the explosion. Close to the station there was a big storage of butter. (!). It did smell melting butter all around the town. It could never have been the Germans that started the fire!"
A tragedy anyway.
B.
hi, Bjørn from Norway, I understood some finns joined German Army or Waffen SS in continue war, I don't think they did anything wrong, they were defending their country and German and finland had the same enmey, But when war broke out between German and Finland, why were these Finns still remained in Waffen SS to fight their own people ? what was in their mind ???
Finns who joined SS or German Army before autumn 1943 where either volunteers in Finnish SS Battalion or citizens of both Finland and Germany (for example Finnish liaison officers and interpreters). After autumn 1943 all citizens of Finland who joined German Army or SS were treated as traitors and deserters. I have never heard if any of them had a special permission to stay with Germans, but it is possible that some of them worked also for the Finnish military intelligence.mars wrote:...I understood some finns joined German Army or Waffen SS in continue war, I don't think they did anything wrong, they were defending their country and German and finland had the same enmey, But when war broke out between German and Finland, why were these Finns still remained in Waffen SS to fight their own people ? what was in their mind ???
As far as I know those Finns who joined German armed forces voluntarily after September 1944 could not come back to Finland after the war and they lost their military ranks in Finland. Most of them lived in Germany or Sweden and were citizens of those countries. There were also former Finnish POW who "were forced to join voluntarily" to Germans and had to follow with Germans.
There are two basic categories of men who joined Germans: Finnish Nazis (not a very large group) and those who still wanted to fight against Soviets (majority). They saw that Soviet Union will occupy Finland very soon and there was no future in Finland. Most of them changed their nationality. My opinion is that probably any of these men never fought against Finns in Lapland War.
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About the Rovaniemi incident in Lapland War:
Hannu Valtonen says in his book about air war in Lapland 1944 - 1945 that there was a German special group at Rovaniemi consisted of Soviet (SS ?) soldiers which was specialized for devastating infrastructure, villages and houses. He asks if that group had something to do with the destruction of Rovaniemi?
All Finnish guerrilla (= long range patrol) operations are not well known, but I think if such an attack against ammunition train would have happened it had been published by other authors and historians too. Most likely that train exploded accidentally when it was being unloaded.