Hi,
And thank you for clarifying the www-button for me. Both Lars and Bjørn seem to have interesting websites linked, and it will take some time for me to study them in more detail. -- I must say, I have learned quite a lot since starting this thread!
Just to add one more link of photographs of the Lapland War:
http://sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Lapin ... a_cat.html
Cheers,
Hanski
The Finnish-German Lapland War (15) Sep 1944 - 27 Apr 1945
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Juha Hujanen
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Lars,about Russians in Ivalo.Here's account from Finnish soldier Leevi Mikkola.He served in Jaegerbattalion 2."It was propably 4.11.44,when we were riding with bicycles thru ismeerroad towards Ivalo.Then a Platoon came marching towards us,and by distance we regognised them Russians.When well armed Russians arrived marching in 4 rows near us,they saluted us.We did same.It was strickt military salute in both sides,they were no talkings.Grim faced and tired were Russians too.We continued our journey to centre of Ivalo..."
After that Russians started to march towards East.
regards Juha
After that Russians started to march towards East.
regards Juha
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Lars Gyllenhaal
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Ivalo and WH-helmets in Nato...
Hi!
Juha, a fascinating scene from Ivalo that you gave us! What you write makes me see a little film in my mind (and I have not been drinking
) . I don´t read Finnish but would still love to get the title of the book by Leevi Mikkola.
As Björn has said no Norwegians with fighting experience from the Eastern front took part in rebuilding the Norwegian armed forces. However, I have seen several photographs of German WWII helmets, MG-42:s and MPi-40:s (or is it MP-40?) used by the post-WWII Norwegian army, especially by the Norwegian Home Guard. In fact, the Norwegian Defense Museum in Oslo at least until 1987 had a manequin representing a Norwegian UN-trooper armed with a MPi-40. German WWII field telephones and a lot of other WH-stuff was also used by the postwar Norwegian armed forces.
Considering how much German weapons etc were used I wonder if not at least a handfull men with W-SS experience were accepted into the Norwegian Home guard?
Björn, I have not studied the camps set up post WWII for the Norwegian ex-W-SS. What mortality rate did they have? I seem to recall that treatment in them was not good, but neither was it horrendous. Probably there were variations among them too? Am I right in believing that most ex-W-SS men were let out in 1948-1952?? Were they somehow officially marked after that - loss of right to vote or something?
Cheers,
Juha, a fascinating scene from Ivalo that you gave us! What you write makes me see a little film in my mind (and I have not been drinking
) . I don´t read Finnish but would still love to get the title of the book by Leevi Mikkola.As Björn has said no Norwegians with fighting experience from the Eastern front took part in rebuilding the Norwegian armed forces. However, I have seen several photographs of German WWII helmets, MG-42:s and MPi-40:s (or is it MP-40?) used by the post-WWII Norwegian army, especially by the Norwegian Home Guard. In fact, the Norwegian Defense Museum in Oslo at least until 1987 had a manequin representing a Norwegian UN-trooper armed with a MPi-40. German WWII field telephones and a lot of other WH-stuff was also used by the postwar Norwegian armed forces.
Considering how much German weapons etc were used I wonder if not at least a handfull men with W-SS experience were accepted into the Norwegian Home guard?
Björn, I have not studied the camps set up post WWII for the Norwegian ex-W-SS. What mortality rate did they have? I seem to recall that treatment in them was not good, but neither was it horrendous. Probably there were variations among them too? Am I right in believing that most ex-W-SS men were let out in 1948-1952?? Were they somehow officially marked after that - loss of right to vote or something?
Cheers,
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Juha Hujanen
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Bjørn from Norway
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- Location: Bodø¸, Northern Norway
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post-45
Hello!
First for the questions: "German WWII helmets, MG-42:s and MPi-40"
Y
es, the post-45 army used quite a lot of ex-German equipment. Not so much the MG42, as most were sent to France, but helmets, K98, P38, PPo8, LiG, communication equipment etc.
"I wonder if not at least a handfull men with W-SS experience were accepted into the Norwegian Home guard?"
All frontfighters were also sentenced to at least 10 years loss of civil rights. Truly, a very few found their way into the Home Guard in the late 50s/60s, but in extremely small numbers, as this was (and still is) very controvercial.
"Björn, I have not studied the camps set up post WWII for the Norwegian ex-W-SS. What mortality rate did they have? I seem to recall that treatment in them was not good, but neither was it horrendous. Probably there were variations among them too? Am I right in believing that most ex-W-SS men were let out in 1948-1952?? Were they somehow officially marked after that - loss of right to vote or something?"
You could call it horrendous, at least that is what they say for themselves.
Most did get released 1948-55, but were marked for life after the harsh conditions. It did improve after 1948, but still, most got deseases from malnutrition etc. There were several concentration camps all over the country, and indeed some variation in how to treat prisoners. It did actually improve after the "hjemmestyrkene" (HS) and the Swedish police troops stopped serving in the camps.
This is such a large and interesting topic, so I suggest one start a new thread. Have yo btw read "Den norska rättsuppgörelsen", written by law professors at Lund University??
B.
First for the questions: "German WWII helmets, MG-42:s and MPi-40"
Y
es, the post-45 army used quite a lot of ex-German equipment. Not so much the MG42, as most were sent to France, but helmets, K98, P38, PPo8, LiG, communication equipment etc.
"I wonder if not at least a handfull men with W-SS experience were accepted into the Norwegian Home guard?"
All frontfighters were also sentenced to at least 10 years loss of civil rights. Truly, a very few found their way into the Home Guard in the late 50s/60s, but in extremely small numbers, as this was (and still is) very controvercial.
"Björn, I have not studied the camps set up post WWII for the Norwegian ex-W-SS. What mortality rate did they have? I seem to recall that treatment in them was not good, but neither was it horrendous. Probably there were variations among them too? Am I right in believing that most ex-W-SS men were let out in 1948-1952?? Were they somehow officially marked after that - loss of right to vote or something?"
You could call it horrendous, at least that is what they say for themselves.
Most did get released 1948-55, but were marked for life after the harsh conditions. It did improve after 1948, but still, most got deseases from malnutrition etc. There were several concentration camps all over the country, and indeed some variation in how to treat prisoners. It did actually improve after the "hjemmestyrkene" (HS) and the Swedish police troops stopped serving in the camps.
This is such a large and interesting topic, so I suggest one start a new thread. Have yo btw read "Den norska rättsuppgörelsen", written by law professors at Lund University??
B.
Bicycles for mobility
To return to the main topic: undoubtedly anyone who has seen photographs of Lapland War, has seen several photos of Finnish troops on bicycles. And this was not only the case in the Lapland War, but throughout the Continuation War in suitable weather conditions, especially Jaeger troops pedaled quite remarkable maneuvres on bikes (the Winter War, of course, required skis for mobility).
I wonder if any other army in WWII utilised bicycles to anything like this extent?
The main reason of course was the lack of lorries, so "the poor man's substitute" for it in the Finnish Army up to the present days has been the bicycle. With the price of a lorry, you can buy quite a number of bicycles. The maximum speed is not equal, and long-distance pedaling takes its toll in physical fatigue of the bicyclist, but there are some advantages as well.
It simplifies the logistics problem if all mobility does not require petrol. Mechanical breakdowns of combustion engines and their power transmission do not occur. Men with bicycles can use narrow forrest footpaths and cross marshlands carrying their bikes, which gives them superior mobility in difficult terrain over even 4-wheel-drive lorries, and their movement is nearly silent. If bridges have been blown up or there are only rowboats available to cross waterways, bicycles may still be able to cross the obstacle with their troops. Soldiers on bicycles are not detected by surveillance as easily as lorries, and single soldiers on bikes make small and dispersed targets compared to troops on lorries. They can mount and dismount their bikes in seconds.
I am not aware of the details, but I remember having heard a vague story from the Lapland War about Germans getting hold of a large number of Finn bicycles and destroying them all at once by driving over them with a tank. I wonder if anybody could confirm this story?
I wonder if any other army in WWII utilised bicycles to anything like this extent?
The main reason of course was the lack of lorries, so "the poor man's substitute" for it in the Finnish Army up to the present days has been the bicycle. With the price of a lorry, you can buy quite a number of bicycles. The maximum speed is not equal, and long-distance pedaling takes its toll in physical fatigue of the bicyclist, but there are some advantages as well.
It simplifies the logistics problem if all mobility does not require petrol. Mechanical breakdowns of combustion engines and their power transmission do not occur. Men with bicycles can use narrow forrest footpaths and cross marshlands carrying their bikes, which gives them superior mobility in difficult terrain over even 4-wheel-drive lorries, and their movement is nearly silent. If bridges have been blown up or there are only rowboats available to cross waterways, bicycles may still be able to cross the obstacle with their troops. Soldiers on bicycles are not detected by surveillance as easily as lorries, and single soldiers on bikes make small and dispersed targets compared to troops on lorries. They can mount and dismount their bikes in seconds.
I am not aware of the details, but I remember having heard a vague story from the Lapland War about Germans getting hold of a large number of Finn bicycles and destroying them all at once by driving over them with a tank. I wonder if anybody could confirm this story?
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Lars Gyllenhaal
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the bike and the horse
Hi/Terve,
The bicycle is certainly an underrated weapon, but the Finns were not alone in realizing this. There was a German bicycle brigade called "Norwegen" operating in the Arctic. They definately operated in Norway and in the Petsamo area but I am unsure if they ever ventured down to Ivalo or more southwards. Does anyone know some details about these chaps, especially just how much they actually used their bikes??
Many also tend to forget the utility of the horse and mule BTW and I would like to know if there was ever a larger concentration of German horses (and to some extent mules) than in Lapland 1941-1944?? Perhaps in the Caucasus or Ukraine - just speculatin´ now. As many of you know there were about 60 000 German horses (and some mules) in Lapland.
What about the Finnish army when they pursued the Germans up into Lapland - did they use a lot of horses? If so, were they ever used in recce missions or even cavalry-style attacks?
The Swiss army still today uses bikes for front-line troops - and very snazzy-looking bikes too. The Americans in Afghanistan, in spite of their heavy reliance on high-tech gadgets, came to the conclusion that the horse still has a military role in combat operations: they had (or still have) SF-men on horse-back there...
Cheers,
The bicycle is certainly an underrated weapon, but the Finns were not alone in realizing this. There was a German bicycle brigade called "Norwegen" operating in the Arctic. They definately operated in Norway and in the Petsamo area but I am unsure if they ever ventured down to Ivalo or more southwards. Does anyone know some details about these chaps, especially just how much they actually used their bikes??
Many also tend to forget the utility of the horse and mule BTW and I would like to know if there was ever a larger concentration of German horses (and to some extent mules) than in Lapland 1941-1944?? Perhaps in the Caucasus or Ukraine - just speculatin´ now. As many of you know there were about 60 000 German horses (and some mules) in Lapland.
What about the Finnish army when they pursued the Germans up into Lapland - did they use a lot of horses? If so, were they ever used in recce missions or even cavalry-style attacks?
The Swiss army still today uses bikes for front-line troops - and very snazzy-looking bikes too. The Americans in Afghanistan, in spite of their heavy reliance on high-tech gadgets, came to the conclusion that the horse still has a military role in combat operations: they had (or still have) SF-men on horse-back there...
Cheers,
Last edited by Lars Gyllenhaal on 04 Nov 2002, 22:55, edited 1 time in total.
There was also an great number of mines left by German forces in northern Finland, which caused serious losses to Finnish troops and also to civilian population after the war. German S-mines, the "Bounching Bettys" - bounding fragmentation mines were the most dangerous land-mine devices invented by that time.
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Lars Gyllenhaal
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mine accidents
Good point Mark. BTW - when was the latest incident with a mine or some kind of unexploded ammunition (UXO) going off in Lapland or Finnmark? Has anyone heard of any deaths related to this in recent years?
I can only tell you that two Russian soldiers died as the result of contact with a bomb from WWII a little more than a year ago. This happened somewhere in the Pechenga area and was reported in local media.
Björn - re. the postwar treatment of former W-SS in Norway - yes, lets start a new thread - which section of the forum would be most appropriate?
Cheers,
I can only tell you that two Russian soldiers died as the result of contact with a bomb from WWII a little more than a year ago. This happened somewhere in the Pechenga area and was reported in local media.
Björn - re. the postwar treatment of former W-SS in Norway - yes, lets start a new thread - which section of the forum would be most appropriate?
Cheers,
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Bjørn from Norway
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- Location: Bodø¸, Northern Norway
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Hello all!
Hmononen:
"I wonder if any other army in WWII utilised bicycles to anything like this extent".
No, I do not believe so, not at least to that extent. The Germans did, however, have a few "Radfahr Schwadrone", one was in Norway/Finland.
Lars: I am not sure which Forum to use. It is still a touchy subject how the Norwegian frontfighters etc were sentenced, since both the Norw. constitution + international laws were put aside. Maybe this one??
As for mines: I have not heard of any fatal accidents in Norway. The largest one was in the 50s. when almost a whole platoon got viped out (Finnmark) when the poorly educated platoon commander tried to demonstrate that a "Tellermine" won´t explode unless the weight is more than 150 kg. He tried it by jumping on it....
Several German POWs were however killed on 45-46 while clearing the mine fields.
B.
Hmononen:
"I wonder if any other army in WWII utilised bicycles to anything like this extent".
No, I do not believe so, not at least to that extent. The Germans did, however, have a few "Radfahr Schwadrone", one was in Norway/Finland.
Lars: I am not sure which Forum to use. It is still a touchy subject how the Norwegian frontfighters etc were sentenced, since both the Norw. constitution + international laws were put aside. Maybe this one??
As for mines: I have not heard of any fatal accidents in Norway. The largest one was in the 50s. when almost a whole platoon got viped out (Finnmark) when the poorly educated platoon commander tried to demonstrate that a "Tellermine" won´t explode unless the weight is more than 150 kg. He tried it by jumping on it....
Several German POWs were however killed on 45-46 while clearing the mine fields.
B.
Re: the bike and the horse
Lars Gyllenhaal wrote:The bicycle is certainly an underrated weapon, but the Finns were not alone in realizing this. There was a German bicycle brigade called "Norwegen" operating in the Arctic. They definately operated in Norway and in the Petsamo area but I am unsure if they ever ventured down to Ivalo or more southwards. Does anyone know some details about these chaps, especially just how much they actually used their bikes??
I think there were many more "Radfahr Schwadrone" than just one. I'm not sure but I think German "Radfahr Brigade" was formed from the many bicycle squadrons/companies in that area. All German Divisions in Finland had either "Aufklärungs Bataillon" or " Aufkl. (Radfahr) Kompanie/Schwadron" for reconnaissance equipped at least partly with bicycles (and motorcycles).Björn from Norway wrote:The Germans did, however, have a few "Radfahr Schwadrone", one was in Norway/Finland.
German mules (or more likely mules from the Balkans/Greece) of the 6. Gebirgs-Division mostly died in Finland because there were too cold.Lars Gyllenhaal wrote:Many also tend to forget the utility of the horse and mule...
The difference between German and Finnish horses was the the first ones needed clear paths and roads to go unlike Finnish ones. Germand horses didn't give way if they would have to step to snowy part of the road!
Finnish cavalry consisted of dragoons who never made such an attacks like the unit names URR (Uusimaa Dragoon Regiment) and HRR (Häme Mounted Regiment) indicate. Dragoons were Jägers who moved using horsed instead of bikes. Horses were used only between November - December 1939 (after that skiis) and June 1941 - summer 1943 (after that bicycles).Lars Gyllenhaal wrote:...were they ever used in recce missions or even cavalry-style attacks?
Also another company in Finnish "Light Detachments" [Kevyt osasto] was a "Cavalry (actually mounted) Company" [Ratsuväkikomppania] equipped with horses during the Winter War - another one was "Bicycle (note: NOT Jäger) Company" [Polkupyöräkomppania]. There were a few exceptions to this rule.
"Mountain bikes" are maybe handy in the mountains... but conventional bikes are still used in Finland.Lars Gyllenhaal wrote:The Swiss army still today uses bikes for front-line troops - and very snazzy-looking bikes too. The Americans in Afghanistan, in spite of their heavy reliance on high-tech gadgets, came to the conclusion that the horse still has a military role in combat operations: they had (or still have) SF-men on horse-back there...
Horses are really good in bad conditions and can carry much more than soldiers. In Finland they were used until 1970's. Now we have Bandvagns/NaSus which can do the job as well.
Re: mine accidents
There haven't been any such cases in Lapland during the two decades or so. I think the latest incident is from the 1970's or late 1960's. In the 1940's and 50's mine explosions were commond but thanks to reindeers most of the them have already been found... :roll: Anyway hidden ammunitions are still occasionally found.Lars Gyllenhaal wrote:when was the latest incident with a mine or some kind of unexploded ammunition (UXO) going off in Lapland or Finnmark? Has anyone heard of any deaths related to this in recent years?
There are although still areas classed dangerous in Lapland at least in Rovajärvi field artillery range, but that is partly due to dud field artillery shots. Maybe this "dangerous" reputation also keeps impertinent wanderers away from that area too... 8)
Some time ago there was discussion on bicycles and warfare on the Thirdreichforum. It was here:
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... highlight=
regards,
Tapani K.
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... highlight=
regards,
Tapani K.
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Bjørn from Norway
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- Location: Bodø¸, Northern Norway
- Contact:
Hello Harri!
You are right on that there were several "Schwadrone" which made up the Brigade. This is one of my week points, or "Achilles heel", but, at least during the German attack on Norway, several divisions had bicycle units:
Gruppe XXI
69 Infanterie - Division (Generalmajor Tittel)
? Radfahrschwadron
163 Infanterie - Division (Generalmaior Engelbrecht)
Radfahrschwadron 234
151 Infanterie - Division (Generalmaior Woytasch)
Radfahrschwadron 222
196 Infanterie - Division (Generalmaior Pellengahr)
Radfahrschwadron 233
170 Infanterie - Division (Generalmajor Wittke)
Radfahrschwadron 240
198 Infanterie - Division (Generalmaior Roettig)
Radfahrschwadron 235
This is from a German doccument, stating the state of German forces in 1944:
German forces at the Northern Front, 15.10.1944, 8.00 O`clock
2. Gebirgdivision(Generalleutnant Degen) mit Radfahrer - Aufklärungsbrigade "Norwegen" (ohne 3. Schwadron)
Korpsgruppe Rübel mit 163. Infanteriedivision (Generalleutnant Rübel)
"3./Radf.Aufkl. - Brig. Norwegen"
Finally, their losses etc:
German losses 1-31.10.44, listed as dead, wounded, missing, summary, and strength 1.10.44:
Radf.Aufkl.-Bri-
Gade "Norwe-
Gen" 131 (3) 278 (8) 230 (4) 639 (15) ?
Total strength 8. May 1945: Radf.Aufkl.Brig."Norwegen": 1657 (LXXI. AK)
I see that there are many interesting topics within the area of the "Forgotten Front". We must assure that Marcus dont close the topics because they are "drifting away", so we should start new topics/threads.
Best wishes,
Bjørn!
You are right on that there were several "Schwadrone" which made up the Brigade. This is one of my week points, or "Achilles heel", but, at least during the German attack on Norway, several divisions had bicycle units:
Gruppe XXI
69 Infanterie - Division (Generalmajor Tittel)
? Radfahrschwadron
163 Infanterie - Division (Generalmaior Engelbrecht)
Radfahrschwadron 234
151 Infanterie - Division (Generalmaior Woytasch)
Radfahrschwadron 222
196 Infanterie - Division (Generalmaior Pellengahr)
Radfahrschwadron 233
170 Infanterie - Division (Generalmajor Wittke)
Radfahrschwadron 240
198 Infanterie - Division (Generalmaior Roettig)
Radfahrschwadron 235
This is from a German doccument, stating the state of German forces in 1944:
German forces at the Northern Front, 15.10.1944, 8.00 O`clock
2. Gebirgdivision(Generalleutnant Degen) mit Radfahrer - Aufklärungsbrigade "Norwegen" (ohne 3. Schwadron)
Korpsgruppe Rübel mit 163. Infanteriedivision (Generalleutnant Rübel)
"3./Radf.Aufkl. - Brig. Norwegen"
Finally, their losses etc:
German losses 1-31.10.44, listed as dead, wounded, missing, summary, and strength 1.10.44:
Radf.Aufkl.-Bri-
Gade "Norwe-
Gen" 131 (3) 278 (8) 230 (4) 639 (15) ?
Total strength 8. May 1945: Radf.Aufkl.Brig."Norwegen": 1657 (LXXI. AK)
I see that there are many interesting topics within the area of the "Forgotten Front". We must assure that Marcus dont close the topics because they are "drifting away", so we should start new topics/threads.
Best wishes,
Bjørn!
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Juha Tompuri
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- Location: Mylsä
Back to the arseny of Rovaniemi
Hi!
I´ve just finished reading the "Vedin Miekalla Paasikiven Linjaa" by Erkki Kerojärvi. The book that Mars mentioned as source of information at "Seven Days in January" by Wolf T. Zoepf.
A very interesting book of a man (the author himself) with unique memory.
I have difficulties in choosing which of the two things he remembers, describes best the reliability of his memories: he remembering exploding the train at Rovaniemi or he remembering taking part and getting wounded at the Winter War. As sergeant. AT AGE OF 15 YEARS!!!
Mars, I think we can forget the cover up theory.
Björn, you told about the memories of Standartenführer Schreiber, commander of SS-Geb.Jg.Rgt.12. AFAIK his unit (the IIBatt.) was the last german(lead) unit to leave the burning Rovaniemi.
The memories of gen Rendulic (AFAIK he was not at Rovaniemi when the burning started) were written using second hand information. I`m affraid it could be Mr Schreiber.
Juha
I´ve just finished reading the "Vedin Miekalla Paasikiven Linjaa" by Erkki Kerojärvi. The book that Mars mentioned as source of information at "Seven Days in January" by Wolf T. Zoepf.
A very interesting book of a man (the author himself) with unique memory.
I have difficulties in choosing which of the two things he remembers, describes best the reliability of his memories: he remembering exploding the train at Rovaniemi or he remembering taking part and getting wounded at the Winter War. As sergeant. AT AGE OF 15 YEARS!!!
Mars, I think we can forget the cover up theory.
Björn, you told about the memories of Standartenführer Schreiber, commander of SS-Geb.Jg.Rgt.12. AFAIK his unit (the IIBatt.) was the last german(lead) unit to leave the burning Rovaniemi.
The memories of gen Rendulic (AFAIK he was not at Rovaniemi when the burning started) were written using second hand information. I`m affraid it could be Mr Schreiber.
Juha