'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?

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'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?

Post by Sergey » 01 Jul 2009 07:59

Angela Merkel's party backs 'homeland' for Germans expelled by Poland

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... oland.html

The party of the German Chancellor Angela Merkel has declared that its countrymen expelled by Poland after the Second World War have a ‘right to a homeland’ and said the deportations should be condemned under international law.


There are many aspects of this story. However had the deportations violated the international law?

Wartime animosity between Poland and Germany could resurface after a new election manifesto published by the Christian Democratic Union (CDU) pledged to promote the cause of those expelled.

In 1945 millions of ethnic Germans were forced from their homes after a redrawing of the border resulted in their lands becoming part of Poland.


Last yesr I have been to Western Poland (in Zlotorya, former Goldberg in former Silesia, for example). Old tile-covered roofs (sometimes unrepaired from German times) are everywhere. Now the borders in Europe are open and the Germans could simply buy property and settle in Western Poland in Former East Prussia. In this case they would pay taxes in Poland ans the Poles pay taxes in the UK, Ireland working there. Would it be a solution?

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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?

Post by Peter K » 01 Jul 2009 12:00

in Zlotorya, former Goldberg in former Silesia,


Silesia (Slask / Schlesien) is not "former" but present. The name of this historical region is a Slavonic name, it originated from the name of the Sleza Mountain and the Slezanie Slavonic tribe, conquered by Mieszko I of Poland.

in Zlotorya, former Goldberg


Zlotoryja (former Zlota Gora) is the oldest documented settlement with civic rights in Poland (although it is probable that some towns / cities received civic rights earlier but documents did not surive until modern times) - it was given civic rights by duke Henryk I Brodaty of Poland from Piast dynasty in year 1211.

Germans expelled by Poland


By whom? By Poland? Please don't joke. Rather by the USSR, Jewish communists and "The Big Three".

People responsible for these events were:

Stalin, Roosevelt, Churchill - they decided to deport Germans from these areas yet in Yalta and Potsdam. And on 20.02.1945 this decision was definitely confirmed by Joseph Stalin in his PKO decree No. 7558.

Joseph Stalin - he invented the whole plan of deportations, introduced it, was supervising it and giving instructions to his subjects.

Hilary Minc - Jew (mother's surname: Fajersztajn), communist, Stalin's agent, before the war - in 20s and 30s - demanded incorporation of Polish part of Upper Silesia to Germany (sic !), responsible for propaganda and terror.

Jacob Berman - Jew, communist, Stalin's agent, before the war - in 20s and 30s - demanded incorporation of Polish part of Upper Silesia to Germany (sic !), responsible for organization and direct supervision of deportations.

Wladyslaw Gomulka - communist, Soviet agent since mid 20s, Stalin's servant, member of the Russian Communist Party, in 1934 sentenced to five years of heavy prison for "acting to the detriment of the state of Poland and in the interest of Russia" (sic !).

Boleslaw Bierut - NKVD agent (sic !) since mid 20s, during the pre-war period active member of the Kommunisticzeskij Internacional, member of the Russian Communist Party.

Aleksander Zawadzki - communist, Soviet agent since mid 20s, member of the Russian Communist Party and Polish Communist Party of course too, voivode of Katowice after WW2.

All of these communists, enemies of the Polish state and the Polish nation, puppets or agents of Stalin mentioned above came to power in Poland thanks to Stalin and his services, without any elections (first elections in Poland - completely falsified by the puppet communist government with support of Stalin by the way - took place in 1947).

The only legal Polish government - the Polish Government in Exile (in Great Britain) was not supporting deportations of Germans from Poland and was always decidedly against such deportations.

Now the borders in Europe are open and the Germans could simply buy property and settle in Western Poland in Former East Prussia. In this case they would pay taxes in Poland ans the Poles pay taxes in the UK, Ireland working there. Would it be a solution?


This problem is already non existant.

Most of these persons who had to leave their homes after the war, are now dead. Only their grandchildren and sometimes children are alive, but vast majority of them were born in present Germany and there is their homeland.

The family of Erika Steinbach - who claims to be one of the "expelled" ones - came to Poland during the Second World War (they settled in a house of some expelled or brutally murderred by Germans Polish family). There are many of such people in Germany, who wants to "get back their property", which was in fact stolen by Nazi Germany from Poles between 1939 and 1944. Family of Erika Steinbach settled in Rumia - which was Polish in 1939, and was occupied by Germany during WW2. Erika was born in 1943, and was not "expulsed" - Poland just received back its pre-39 property.

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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?

Post by Sergey » 01 Jul 2009 15:28

Domen121 wrote:
in Zlotorya, former Goldberg in former Silesia,


Silesia (Slask / Schlesien) is not "former" but present. The name of this historical region is a Slavonic name, it originated from the name of the Sleza Mountain and the Slezanie Slavonic tribe, conquered by Mieszko I of Poland.


Dear Domen, using a word 'former' with Silesia I meant former German province Silesia that is now Slask. I know it pretty well.

Domen121 wrote:
in Zlotorya, former Goldberg


Zlotoryja (former Zlota Gora) is the oldest documented settlement with civic rights in Poland (although it is probable that some towns / cities received civic rights earlier but documents did not surive until modern times) - it was given civic rights by duke Henryk I Brodaty of Poland from Piast dynasty in year 1211.


Yes, from historical point of view, Slask is a part of Poland inhabitated in time by Slavic tribes. Moreover, some parts of modern Germany were populated by Slavic tribes as well.

Domen121 wrote:
Germans expelled by Poland


By whom? By Poland? Please don't joke. Rather by the USSR, Jewish communists and "The Big Three".


I would like to note that it is not my phrase but a quote - it is a part of a title of the article in the Daily Telegraph.

Domen121 wrote:People responsible for these events were:

Stalin, Roosevelt, Churchill - they decided to deport Germans from these areas yet in Yalta and Potsdam. And on 20.02.1945 this decision was definitely confirmed by Joseph Stalin in his PKO decree No. 7558.

Joseph Stalin - he invented the whole plan of deportations, introduced it, was supervising it and giving instructions to his subjects.

Hilary Minc - Jew (mother's surname: Fajersztajn), communist, Stalin's agent, before the war - in 20s and 30s - demanded incorporation of Polish part of Upper Silesia to Germany (sic !), responsible for propaganda and terror.

Jacob Berman - Jew, communist, Stalin's agent, before the war - in 20s and 30s - demanded incorporation of Polish part of Upper Silesia to Germany (sic !), responsible for organization and direct supervision of deportations.

Wladyslaw Gomulka - communist, Soviet agent since mid 20s, Stalin's servant, member of the Russian Communist Party, in 1934 sentenced to five years of heavy prison for "acting to the detriment of the state of Poland and in the interest of Russia" (sic !).

Boleslaw Bierut - NKVD agent (sic !) since mid 20s, during the pre-war period active member of the Kommunisticzeskij Internacional, member of the Russian Communist Party.

Aleksander Zawadzki - communist, Soviet agent since mid 20s, member of the Russian Communist Party and Polish Communist Party of course too, voivode of Katowice after WW2.

All of these communists, enemies of the Polish state and the Polish nation, puppets or agents of Stalin mentioned above came to power in Poland thanks to Stalin and his services, without any elections (first elections in Poland - completely falsified by the puppet communist government with support of Stalin by the way - took place in 1947).

The only legal Polish government - the Polish Government in Exile (in Great Britain) was not supporting deportations of Germans from Poland and was always decidedly against such deportations.


However, there was a lot of Polish settlers. without them the deportations would be impossible. The settlers along with Polish forces as I understand implemented the plan.

Domen121 wrote:
Now the borders in Europe are open and the Germans could simply buy property and settle in Western Poland in Former East Prussia. In this case they would pay taxes in Poland as the Poles pay taxes in the UK, Ireland working there. Would it be a solution?


This problem is already non existant.


However there is a problem with those Germans who like to live near graves of their relatives, who still regard some parts of Poland as their homeland. Can they be supported by German authorities?

Also there is a problem with juridicial aspects of the deportations.

Domen121 wrote:Most of these persons who had to leave their homes after the war, are now dead. Only their grandchildren and sometimes children are alive, but vast majority of them were born in present Germany and there is their homeland.

The family of Erika Steinbach - who claims to be one of the "expelled" ones - came to Poland during the Second World War (they settled in a house of some expelled or brutally murderred by Germans Polish family). There are many of such people in Germany, who wants to "get back their property", which was in fact stolen by Nazi Germany from Poles between 1939 and 1944. Family of Erika Steinbach settled in Rumia - which was Polish in 1939, and was occupied by Germany during WW2. Erika was born in 1943, and was not "expulsed" - Poland just received back its pre-39 property.


But from formal point of view Frau Steinbach is free to arrive to Poland, to any its part and settle here, to buy a house and so on. Personally she doesn't bear any responsibility for Nazi crimes.

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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?

Post by Peter K » 01 Jul 2009 16:49

However, there was a lot of Polish settlers. without them the deportations would be impossible. The settlers along with Polish forces as I understand implemented the plan.


These settlers were exactly the same victims like Germans who had to leave their homes.

Why? Because these settlers were expelled from Eastern Poland - so called "Western Belarus and Western Ukraine" or from the Wilenszczyzna region in Lithuania (these last ones mainly settled in former German East Prussia).

It seems that everyone who speaks about the so called expulsion forgets about the fact that Poles who settled in areas previously abandoned by expelled / deported Germans had also been expelled / deported from Eastern Poland.

And what they propose to these approximately 2,100,000 Poles who were forced to abandon their homes in Eastern Poland between 1942 and 1959 (of them circa 300,000 in years 1942 - 1944 because of Volhynian Genocide)?

Should they also demand return of their lands - like Erika Steinbach and her organization?

Ukraine and Belarus are not members of the European Union - so they cannot do as you suggested that the expelled Germans should do. Belarus is even not very friendly to Poland, same with Lithuanians (not Lithuania as a state).
Last edited by Peter K on 01 Jul 2009 17:04, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?

Post by Frankfurter » 01 Jul 2009 16:51

Sergey wrote:The party of the German Chancellor Angela Merkel has declared that its countrymen expelled by Poland after the Second World War have a ‘right to a homeland’ and said the deportations should be condemned under international law....
Wartime animosity between Poland and Germany could resurface after a new election manifesto published by the Christian Democratic Union (CDU) pledged to promote the cause of those expelled.


Thanks for posting this. One must know that the Germans expelled from former Eastern Germany are largely voters of Merkel´s party - which will most likely win the next election in November. But that DOENST mean that animosities with Poland will rise afterwards. First, its only a minority in Germany who would support such stupid things. Second, Merkel imho only means "homeland" mostly in a spiritual way. Third, the groups adressed are dying a natural death slowly. And in no way it means that a consirable number of Germans is doubting todays Eastern border. Thats the price Germany had to pay for what it started. End of story.
Different thing is the wish that the deportations be condemned officially. They were huge, and they were often very cruel including many murders. Whatever the conditions at that time or whatever global political decision involved, they were and remain a large-scale crimes. Every reckless deportation from a homeland is a crime.

Domen121 wrote:People responsible for these events were:
Stalin, Roosevelt, Churchill - they decided to deport Germans from these areas yet in Yalta and Potsdam. And on 20.02.1945 this decision was definitely confirmed by Joseph Stalin in his PKO decree No. 7558.
Joseph Stalin - he invented the whole plan of deportations, introduced it, was supervising it and giving instructions to his subjects.


I doubt Roosevelt and Chrurchill gave in to Stalin gladly in this respect - its more they had to throw something to feed the beast.

Sergey wrote:However, there was a lot of Polish settlers. without them the deportations would be impossible.


And where did these come from? They were thrown out from Eastern Poland by Stalin. It was a monstrous crime what the IIIrd Reich did to Poland, but it was a huge crime what the Soviet Union did to the Polish people in 1945, too. The Polish people had not much choice, in 1939 they were pushed by the devil from the West, in 1945 Satan came from the East, shortly disguised as liberator. That the Polish didnt always wear white gloves when "handling" the remaining Germans cant be too much of a surprise under those conditions.

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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?

Post by Peter K » 01 Jul 2009 16:59

its more they had to throw something to feed the beast.


I also think so - but this does not fully deprive them of their responsibility for these events.

A crime of passion is still a crime, although not so heavy.

The settlers along with Polish forces


A lot of Soviet military forces participated too. There were a lot of Soviet military garrisons in Poland after the end of the Second World War. For example in the barracks in my hometown, Russian soldiers were stationing until 1991.

However there is a problem with those Germans who like to live near graves of their relatives, who still regard some parts of Poland as their homeland.


Believe me, German citizens are sueing for land in Polish courts Polish citizens living in the so called "Regained Lands", in most cases Germans are winning because Poles who were deported there after 1944 did not receive the acts of ownership - they received land from the Treasury of the state but without acts of ownership (remember - in the communist system everything was joint and belonged to the state!). For example recently in Mazuria one German woman - Mrs Agnes T. - won a trial for 60 ha of land and 4 (four) Polish families became homeless...

Organization of Erika Steinbach helps Germans in winning such trials and encourages them to start them. The most shocking thing is that usually after winning trials for land in Poland these Germans still live in their homes in Germany - it is only about money and profits from new, "free" land - not about any "homeland" nor other "abstract values"...

Especially that those who are going to courts are usually young people - not the "original", pre-1945 owners of land.

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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Jul 2009 18:50

Hi Guys,

These eastern territories were Germany's only territorial loss of pre-war turf.

Without their loss, Germany would have suffered no enduring punishment for a war its leadership had unleashed and which killed (amongst many others) some six million Polish citizens, only a tiny proportion of them combatants.

Of course, this enduring punishment fell on only one specific segment of the German population, but I would suggest that, as the loss of these eastern lands was a punishment for the whole off Germany, it was and is up to other Germans to compensate their displaced fellow countrymen.

I see no great injustice in the transfer of territory. However, the manner of the expulsions and the accompanying deaths are another matter.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?

Post by Frankfurter » 01 Jul 2009 19:40

Domen121 wrote:Believe me, German citizens are sueing for land in Polish courts Polish citizens living in the so called "Regained Lands", in most cases Germans are winning because Poles who were deported there after 1944 did not receive the acts of ownership - they received land from the Treasury of the state but without acts of ownership (remember - in the communist system everything was joint and belonged to the state!). For example recently in Mazuria one German woman - Mrs Agnes T. - won a trial for 60 ha of land and 4 (four) Polish families became homeless...


As a German I must say that is a bid sad, if the extent is true you´re implicating. I have not heard that such things happen big-scale. And I have not heard about Polish people becoming homeless because of that. In the end the land was stolen from these people 64 years ago, and if innocent Jews in Germany get their property back (like a good friend of mine did), why not innocent German civilians? But, I think in such cases the best solution is to share after such a long time, because this way injustice is payed back by unfairness.
Btw, couldn´t Poles, which were pushed out of former Eastern Poland by the Soviets in 1945, not do the same in their own homeland which is now part of Belorussia etc.?

Domen121 wrote:Especially that those who are going to courts are usually young people - not the "original", pre-1945 owners of land.

Not surprising at all, 99% of those deported as adults do not live anymore, and the few ones that still live, are mostly too old and weak to stand a trial.

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Guys,
Without their loss, Germany would have suffered no enduring punishment for a war its leadership had unleashed and which killed (amongst many others) some six million Polish citizens, only a tiny proportion of them combatants.
Of course, this enduring punishment fell on only one specific segment of the German population, but I would suggest that, as the loss of these eastern lands was a punishment for the whole off Germany, it was and is up to other Germans to compensate their displaced fellow countrymen.
I see no great injustice in the transfer of territory. However, the manner of the expulsions and the accompanying deaths are another matter.
Cheers, Sid.


Imho, to pay billions a year for one (like after WWI) or two generations would have been an enduring punishment enough, and it would have hit the generations resonsible alone, which is a just thing. As a German I`m ashamed at what was done in the name of my country back then, but as being born long after the war, and that into a religious Antinazi family, I do not feel any guilt, but the responsibility not to let such happen again. A war creates misery for one or two generations afterwards, but to take land away is a misery for much longer - plus its inevitable that some wont never give in to it.
In the case of German land loss in 1945, its a done deal long time ago, period. Any attempt of revision now or in future would only create something worse, for any party involved. Thats why I would see theoretically possible large-scale land reclaims by private Germans as potentially problematic for future generations as it could lead to a growing German minority in a historically very problematic area. But that some Germans maintain a holiday home on the grounds of their ancestors, would could deny that? Whats worse in that than having one on the island of Mallorca?

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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?

Post by Peter K » 01 Jul 2009 22:11

As a German I must say that is a bid sad, if the extent is true you´re implicating. I have not heard that such things happen big-scale.


This is not such a big-scale phenomenon, but certainly such things happen and the number of cases is not small.

And I have not heard about Polish people becoming homeless because of that.


They are losing their homes - this usually means becoming homeless only temporarily, but still it is a huge problem and shock for these people, especially for older ones with not very broad prospects, who lived there for a very long time.

In the end the land was stolen from these people 64 years ago, and if innocent Jews in Germany get their property back (like a good friend of mine did), why not innocent German civilians?


But, I think in such cases the best solution is to share after such a long time, because this way injustice is payed back by unfairness.


Of course I agree. But the problem is - as you also noticed ("injustice is payed back by unfairness") - that these Poles who live in these former German houses since around 1945+ are not guilty of this theft and that in most cases these people's property in Eastern Poland was also stolen from them.

That's why I think that there is no any just way for these Germans to get their property back - they can only receive some financial compensation.

But one issue is very important - only those who were direct victims of these deportations (those who were owners of this property in 1945) should receive any compensation - not their families, children and grandchildren. Why? - the answer is simple. If it comes to German compensation for Nazi crimes in Poland during the WW2 - only direct Polish victims of Nazi crimes who were still alive on 08.01.1992 received any compensation from Germany. Later also descendants of those who were killed by Germans during WW2 received compensations (if they were alive), but not families of those who were persecuted in some other way and did not survive until 08.01.1992. See here:

http://www.fpnp.pl/

http://www.fpnp.pl/index_de.php

And for example only a few members of my family received any reparations from Germany as far as I know, despite the fact that one of my grandmothers was murdered in Auschwitz, brother of my grandfather was murdered in Piasnica, some members of my family were on forced labour in Germany and one of my grandfather (the one whose wife was murdered in Auschwitz) was also forced to participate in preparing the defence of the Vistula line.

That's why the same rule should apply to the so called "expelled" - unless Germany is going to pay full war reparations to all victims of Nazi crimes in Poland and their families and descendants.

And Poland as a state did not receive any war reparations from Germany at all (because of the Cold War era). However, the transfer of territory could be regarded as a kind of a replacement for a financial compensation (if we forget that at the same time Poland lost even bigger territory in the East, not to Germany but to the USSR, though).

But that some Germans maintain a holiday home on the grounds of their ancestors, would could deny that? Whats worse in that than having one on the island of Mallorca?


I believe that in cases when it is possible without any harm / problems, they should be able to get back their homes.

Otherwise, they can only try to receive a compensation - but the rules here should be like provided above, imho. And they cannot demand compensation from Polish people who live in their former houses - they should demand it from the state of Poland or from the state of Germany, from some institutions, not private persons. This is logic.

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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?

Post by Frankfurter » 01 Jul 2009 23:30

Domen121 wrote:But one issue is very important - only those who were direct victims of these deportations (those who were owners of this property in 1945) should receive any compensation - not their families, children and grandchildren. Why? - the answer is simple. If it comes to German compensation for Nazi crimes in Poland during the WW2 - only direct Polish victims of Nazi crimes who were still alive on 08.01.1992 received any compensation from Germany. Later also descendants of those who were killed by Germans during WW2 received compensations (if they were alive), but not families of those who were persecuted in some other way and did not survive until 08.01.1992. See here:
http://www.fpnp.pl/
http://www.fpnp.pl/index_de.php


I agree it should no be measured differently, and surely not to the disfavour of victims of Nazi-crimes. The child or grandchild of a deported German landowner should not have more right to claim lost property than the children of victims of Nazi crimes.
But what you say cannot be completely true. A friend of mine is the son of a Polish Jewish Ausschwitz survivor from Galicia who after the war became an Israeli and later German citizen. Only 4 or 5 years ago my friend some received money (a few thousand Euros) from the German government, a few years after his father had died. This money has been declared as final compensation.

Domen121 wrote:despite the fact that one of my grandmothers was murdered in Auschwitz, brother of my grandfather was murdered in Piasnica, some members of my family were on forced labour in Germany and one of my grandfather (the one whose wife was murdered in Auschwitz) was also forced to participate in preparing the defence of the Vistula line.

I´m sorry to hear that.

Domen121 wrote:That's why the same rule should apply to the so called "expelled" - unless Germany is going to pay full war reparations to all victims of Nazi crimes in Poland and their families and descendants.

Of cause I agree.

Domen121 wrote:I believe that in cases when it is possible without any harm / problems, they should be able to get back their homes.
Otherwise, they can only try to receive a compensation - but the rules here should be like provided above, imho. And they cannot demand compensation from Polish people who live in their former houses - they should demand it from the state of Poland or from the state of Germany, from some institutions, not private persons. This is logic.

It is.

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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?

Post by Musashi » 03 Jul 2009 01:25

Frankfurter wrote:
Domen121 wrote:But one issue is very important - only those who were direct victims of these deportations (those who were owners of this property in 1945) should receive any compensation - not their families, children and grandchildren. Why? - the answer is simple. If it comes to German compensation for Nazi crimes in Poland during the WW2 - only direct Polish victims of Nazi crimes who were still alive on 08.01.1992 received any compensation from Germany. Later also descendants of those who were killed by Germans during WW2 received compensations (if they were alive), but not families of those who were persecuted in some other way and did not survive until 08.01.1992. See here:
http://www.fpnp.pl/
http://www.fpnp.pl/index_de.php


I agree it should no be measured differently, and surely not to the disfavour of victims of Nazi-crimes. The child or grandchild of a deported German landowner should not have more right to claim lost property than the children of victims of Nazi crimes.
But what you say cannot be completely true. A friend of mine is the son of a Polish Jewish Ausschwitz survivor from Galicia who after the war became an Israeli and later German citizen. Only 4 or 5 years ago my friend some received money (a few thousand Euros) from the German government, a few years after his father had died. This money has been declared as final compensation.

There is not a surprise for me to hear about that as the German government measures differently Polish and Israeli citisens.
I can gave you three examples:
i. my grandma was working in a village in Harz Mountains (Dardesheim, Kreis Halberstadt) for nearly 4 years. According to her (bear in mind she was a 18 year girl grown up in a village and she knew what hard work is) it was not easy to walk in the field in these mountains, not mentioning the work. She was working there 6 days a week, 12 hours a day for nearly 4 years and she got a compensation in amount of 2000 DM in the mid of 90s.
ii. my grandfather was working in a nearby village for 5 years and he met my grandma there. He got nothing because he died in 1991. Any member of my family cannot get anything because my grandpa died before the agreement between the Polish and German governments.
iii. I read a few times the Israeli citizens or their families were getting a compensation in amount of 40,000 DM or more at that time.

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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?

Post by Karl » 03 Jul 2009 02:55

German Gov should just drop it.

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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?

Post by cortodanzigese » 04 Jul 2009 00:27

The expelling German families from their property only becouse one great power lost to another great power shouldn't never be called legal. It was made in totally barbarous way - in the same way tortured polish sojourners were trasported from the stolen polish provinces in soviet death trains.

Howewer in the real world we should submit to realpolitik and the reality is, that Germany will never have these territories back - first of all becouse of their very low birth rate, ruined family institution and muslim immigration which all combined, will surely take many other ancestral lands away from the Germans. Germany is finished as a nation and that's sad truth.

I think the only reasonable way to once for all settle the matter, is to convince german government to more actively promote german culture and positive image of a german, in areas like Danzig or Silesia. There are hundreds of post-reich monuments in ruins, which local polish authorities would like to restore. German culture in these areas is treated often as a part of local flavour and own thing. New generation of born there Poles is often interested in german heritage of Danzig or Stettin. But All they hear and see is Erika Steinbach all the time.

Germany should thank mrs Erika for destroying all positive sentiment that, slightly, but exists on some areas.

If I were working for US government or Israel, or France, or any foreign power interested in hurting german eastern interests I would have Erika invented, if she didn't existed

Actually the polish families that descend from lost Lwow and Wilno have some sympathy for expelled Germans. The biggest hatred toward Germans is in central provinces of Poland where people consider themselves better than all nations around.

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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?

Post by minimus » 07 Jul 2009 00:14

Frankfurter wrote:And in no way it means that a consirable number of Germans is doubting todays Eastern border. Thats the price Germany had to pay for what it started. End of story.

Thats a relief :D
Reading this forum one might think that most European nations want to rivise something.
Frankfurter wrote:
Domen121 wrote:Believe me, German citizens are sueing for land in Polish courts Polish citizens living in the so called "Regained Lands", in most cases Germans are winning because Poles who were deported there after 1944 did not receive the acts of ownership - they received land from the Treasury of the state but without acts of ownership (remember - in the communist system everything was joint and belonged to the state!). For example recently in Mazuria one German woman - Mrs Agnes T. - won a trial for 60 ha of land and 4 (four) Polish families became homeless...


As a German I must say that is a bid sad, if the extent is true you´re implicating. I have not heard that such things happen big-scale. And I have not heard about Polish people becoming homeless because of that. In the end the land was stolen from these people 64 years ago, and if innocent Jews in Germany get their property back (like a good friend of mine did), why not innocent German civilians? But, I think in such cases the best solution is to share after such a long time, because this way injustice is payed back by unfairness.

Domen is, to say the least, inaccurate on this account. The court case he mentions concerns Germans expelled from Poland IIRC in the 1960s or even early 70s. It can be probably also questioned how German were those kicked out 'Germans'. Most importantly they were also Polish citizens when expelled and hence they are now entitled to compensation. The way Domen portrays it is the same as right-wing media in Poland associated with the previous PIS government.

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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?

Post by Peter K » 07 Jul 2009 01:12

Minimus - I don't know much about this certain case, I just noticed a headline about it somewhere in the internet. I presented it as an example of a more general phenomenon, so it really doesn't matter if it is a good example or not, I really don't care about this concrete case of Mrs Agnes T. You can't deny that Germans deported after 1945 are also sueing for land and don't tell me that you didn't hear about it anywhere.

The court case he mentions concerns Germans expelled from Poland IIRC in the 1960s or even early 70s.


First of all - your post is at least inaccurate too. After reading your post, I have searched for more info about this certain case, and Agnes Trawny was not expelled - she left on her own in 1977 and settled in Germany. :roll: Check here:

http://dom.gazeta.pl/nieruchomosci/1,73 ... wania.html

Several years after she permanently moved to Germany, the head of the commune decided that the Treasury of the state should take over her 59 ha of land - and after some time two Polish families settled there.

So thanks for correcting me - but no thanks for correcting it to an even further from the truth version...
Last edited by Peter K on 07 Jul 2009 01:25, edited 3 times in total.

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