Fred Leuchter

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 10 Feb 2003 16:54

Please avoid insulting language, and let your argument make the point.


I fear I am not always capable of avoiding what may rightly be called insulting language if I am to write here with any honesty, so I shall revert to my earlier line of simply staying clear of this part of the forum.

Very sorry to have added to your already considerable moderating burden -

cheers

David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 04 Mar 2003 20:52


David Thompson
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Re: Fred Leuchter

Post by David Thompson » 23 Jul 2014 03:55

A post from David1819, attempting to repeat a post calling for an opinion thread which got another thread locked (see the locking post at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p1886942), was removed by the moderator - DT.

David1819
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Re: Fred Leuchter

Post by David1819 » 02 Sep 2014 17:45

I have got information from an individual who has recently been in contact with Mr Leuchter. I have quoted his words below on his discussion of Mr Leuchter
It's the mentality of, "Nope, can't have happened, didn't happen, I'm right, you're wrong and nothing you can say or show to me will ever convince me otherwise". I encountered this mentality where I got in a discussion with Fred about carbon monoxide gas chambers. Fred insists that carbon monoxide is an inefficient way to execute people and that it more often just gives people a headache rather than killing them. He told me I should research animal euthanasia and that will clearly show me that carbon monoxide gas chambers simply couldn't work. Well I did a little research on it and I found the article below which is from National Geographic. It tells the story of a dog at the St. Louis pound that actually managed to survive their carbon monoxide gas chamber. The only dog that had managed this feat in the pound's 64 year history! Turns out carbon monoxide gas chambers are plenty efficient and lethal and are used in animal shelters throughout the US. Fred's own suggestion that I research animal euthanasia to see how carbon monoxide gas chambers just couldn't work has shown him to be in error. But he won't admit it. Instead he has totally ignored what I presented him with, just like any hardcore Denier would.

Roches
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Re: Fred Leuchter

Post by Roches » 06 Sep 2014 16:10

After some thought about this, a simple analogy occurred to me.

The lethal injection used in executions consists of three parts: a sedative, a muscle relaxant, and potassium chloride (which stops the heart).

Exhaust gas has three dangerous components: carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and (lack of) oxygen. Talking about the the carbon monoxide in the Aktion Reinhard gas chambers is like talking about just the sedative in the lethal injection. It's there, but it doesn't really matter whether or not you give a fatal dose. The person will die because the potassium chloride will kill them.

Engine exhaust has upwards of 10% carbon dioxide (produced by burning fuel), which is enough to kill. It also contains much less oxygen than breathable air. So, even if you use a catalytic converter to remove all the CO, the exhaust gas still has too little oxygen to sustain life. And it's the lack of oxygen that kills.

By analysis, a diesel engine at idle can have as much as 10% oxygen in the exhaust, but even 10% oxygen will kill you very quickly. (Breathable air is 21% oxygen. The lungs work by having the oxygen diffuse from the air into the blood, which has a slightly lower concentration. If you breathe 10%, it literally sucks the oxygen out of your blood, causing you to die faster than you would if you didn't breathe at all.)

Common sense dictates that the source of the exhaust gas doesn't matter. It can be a diesel engine, a gas engine, too many candles -- you could even toss a burning person into the room, and everyone else will die. The room doesn't need to be sealed tight, either -- an ordinary door would work.

David1819
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Re: Fred Leuchter

Post by David1819 » 06 Sep 2014 22:46

Roches wrote:After some thought about this, a simple analogy occurred to me.

The lethal injection used in executions consists of three parts: a sedative, a muscle relaxant, and potassium chloride (which stops the heart).

Exhaust gas has three dangerous components: carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and (lack of) oxygen. Talking about the the carbon monoxide in the Aktion Reinhard gas chambers is like talking about just the sedative in the lethal injection. It's there, but it doesn't really matter whether or not you give a fatal dose. The person will die because the potassium chloride will kill them.

Engine exhaust has upwards of 10% carbon dioxide (produced by burning fuel), which is enough to kill. It also contains much less oxygen than breathable air. So, even if you use a catalytic converter to remove all the CO, the exhaust gas still has too little oxygen to sustain life. And it's the lack of oxygen that kills.

By analysis, a diesel engine at idle can have as much as 10% oxygen in the exhaust, but even 10% oxygen will kill you very quickly. (Breathable air is 21% oxygen. The lungs work by having the oxygen diffuse from the air into the blood, which has a slightly lower concentration. If you breathe 10%, it literally sucks the oxygen out of your blood, causing you to die faster than you would if you didn't breathe at all.)

Common sense dictates that the source of the exhaust gas doesn't matter. It can be a diesel engine, a gas engine, too many candles -- you could even toss a burning person into the room, and everyone else will die. The room doesn't need to be sealed tight, either -- an ordinary door would work.
It really is not difficult to work out you know.

Ever wonder when you have a fire drill or health and safety training they instruct you never to try a be a hero by going into a burning building to save people because you will choke pass out then soon after die if not sent to hospital?

There is a case here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allenton_house_fire where a man set off a fire downstairs in his house then all his children upstairs died, Not from burning but from the fumes and smoke. So your theory is very much correct

little grey rabbit
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Re: Fred Leuchter

Post by little grey rabbit » 10 Sep 2014 06:14

Exhaust gas has three dangerous components: carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and (lack of) oxygen. Talking about the the carbon monoxide in the Aktion Reinhard gas chambers is like talking about just the sedative in the lethal injection.
I think they did some experiments with rabbits and diesel exhaust back in the 50s, death took quite some time and wasn't always 100%. So sure, you could lock up people in a hermetically sealed airtight room and eventually they will all die, but it boggles the mind that anyone would purposely implement an execution program that way.

If you are going to go to all the effort to exterminate 6 million people is it too much to expect a mildly competent technological solution to have been cobbled together?

These people argue that the evidence for diesel engines is not solid
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... evant.html

My own view is this area of history is more or less determined by politics. If it helps people make sense of a terrifying universe to believe in diesel exhaust gassings, why not? As the Talmud says: " If the eye could see the demons that people the universe, existence would be impossible"

David1819
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Re: Fred Leuchter

Post by David1819 » 10 Sep 2014 22:55

little grey rabbit wrote: but it boggles the mind that anyone would purposely implement an execution program that way.

If you are going to go to all the effort to exterminate 6 million people is it too much to expect a mildly competent technological solution to have been cobbled together?

The reason gas chambers where implemented is because the mass shootings became to traumatising for the SS, Himmler realised his men where becoming demotivated by the whole operation specially considering that women and children also had to be killed.

It makes perfect sense once you understand it was all about implementing an efficient clean execution that no ones has to bear witness to. Using a gas chamber you can kill vast amounts of people by just locking the door and putting the zyklon pellets through a hole, you don't see what's happening plus there is no blood or gore to clear up afterwards.

Zyklon B was a commercially sold pesticide for use in factories and other facilities, I have seen a black and white instructional video that the manufactures made for the employees that would use it, its scary how simple it was to use.

uberjude
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Re: Fred Leuchter

Post by uberjude » 14 Sep 2014 03:32

LGR, diesel is a straw man, as you note from the Holocaust Controversies link. the primary source evidence points much more strongly to gasoline engines.

It's one of those amusing elements of Holocaust denial that Holocaust deniers insist on eye-witness testimony, except when it comes to something like references to diesel engines, at which point its sufficient for anybody to say "diesel" for them to say 'see, there's no foundation to the gassing myth!"

the fact is that the testimonies regarding diesel engines are primarily offhand references or second hand, while the people who actually worked with the engines testify to their being gasoline engines:

from the link you provided:
Now let's move to Sobibor. Luckily, we have a testimony of the person who had personally installed a gassing engine there. It was SS-Scharfuehrer Erich Fuchs, who testified on April 8, 1963:
We unloaded the motor. It was a heavy Russian benzine engine, at least 200 horsepower. We installed the engine on a concrete foundation and set up the connection between the exhaust and the tube.
and this:
If the people who installed/operated the engines were to testify about them being diesels and Berg's technical arguments are true, that would present a problem. But we have already seen Fuchs testifying about a petrol engine. More information comes from German historian Peter Witte:
In this case even three former Gasmeister (“Gasmasters” / Erich Bauer, Erich Fuchs, and Franz Hödl), who must have really have known the facts, since they all killed with the same motor, confirmed in court that it was definitely a petrol motor. Bauer and Fuchs, having been professional motor mechanics, simply quarrelled during the trial about whether it was a Renault motor or a heavy Russian tank motor (probably a tank motor or a tractor motor) having at least 200 PS. They also disputed whether the method of ignition was a starter or an impact magnet, which diesel motors obviously do not have, being self-igniting...
He adds:
Hödl reported that they once tried a Diesel motor for the the gas chambers, but it did not work!
simply put, there's no good reason to conclude that the engines were diesel and not gasoline, no matter how many people repeat the error.

David Thompson
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Re: Fred Leuchter

Post by David Thompson » 14 Sep 2014 14:58

For the supposed use of diesel engines in lethal gassing operations, see Roberto Muehlenkamp's post (not more than 10 years old) at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 64#p228264

For other discussions here of the same scarlet herring, see:

What kind of diesel engines where used?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=25742
Fun with DIESEL GAS-VANS at Krasnodar and Kharkov...
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=571
REAL DIESEL VANS!
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=1881
Gassing Vans Revisited
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=20051
Death van trials
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=15777
Chelmno
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=11862

For a tentative index of some of our other discussions involving cult interest claims and "Revisionism," see the list at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1227600

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