Beheadings in the Third Reich

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Piotr1
Member
Posts: 324
Joined: 16 Sep 2007 05:24
Location: Poland

Re: Königsberg prison beheadings

Postby Piotr1 » 16 Feb 2017 16:38

[quote="Pete26"]There is little data on how many guillotine executions were carried out in Königsberg prison (one of the Central Execution sites of the Third Reich).

also we don't know how many peoples were guillotined in Danzig prison....

User avatar
fredric
Member
Posts: 855
Joined: 03 Dec 2004 04:19
Location: USA Princeton

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Postby fredric » 16 Feb 2017 17:11

Images are from a documentary film of the Danzig Anatomical Institute. The film
was made by a Soviet inspection team and is a complilation of visual proof of Nazi atrocities.
Still images (many) also were taken at the Institute. Some were published in the first official book
documenting the Holocaust. The film was shown by the Soviet prosecutors at the Nuremburg Trial.
There is controversy, however,about the nationality and religion of the beheaded corpses; it is thought
the corpses and heads were first photographed at the Danzig execution center (see the photo identified
as "Auschwitz), then transported to the Anatomical Institute to again be photographed and filmed.
The film also documents the Posen guillotine (familiar footage) and the idea that the Nazis made soap from human fat
and produced gruesome heads and lampshades. The Soviets were intent on shocking the Nuremberg judges and
the press; they succeeded.
The book "Medaliony" (sp) describes what was found at the Danzig Institute and includes still photos. Also, a worker (Polish?) at the institute was interviewed and he claimed he saw a guillotine at the Institute. I believe this information can be found
if you check out the "Mazur" testimony on the Holocaust site.

Pete26
Member
Posts: 2650
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 02:19
Location: USA

Re: Königsberg prison beheadings

Postby Pete26 » 17 Feb 2017 03:27

Piotr1 wrote:
Pete26 wrote:There is little data on how many guillotine executions were carried out in Königsberg prison (one of the Central Execution sites of the Third Reich).


also we don't know how many peoples were guillotined in Danzing prison....


According to the data I posted a while ago, it is at least 4. No data is given for Königsberg, but now I found a reference of at least 400 which were all brought to Danzig Anatomical Institute.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35191&p=1972137&hilit=Danzig#p1972137

Pete26
Member
Posts: 2650
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 02:19
Location: USA

Last man guillotined in East Germany

Postby Pete26 » 17 Feb 2017 04:27

A short video about the trial of Dr. Horst Fischer who was the last man guillotined in East Germany. At 2:04 into the clip, the death sentence is pronounced. He was guillotined in Leipzig on 8 July 1966. After his execution, the guillotine was never used in Germany again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC_TUoMWlzE

http://www.zeit.de/1966/14/tod-fuer-mord

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Fischer

France continued to use the guillotine for official executions until 1977. The last person executed by guillotine in France was Hamida Djandoubi.

https://deathpenaltynews.blogspot.com/2 ... -last.html

User avatar
alanlee
Member
Posts: 54
Joined: 10 Feb 2017 05:36
Location: Hong Kong

Re: Last man guillotined in East Germany

Postby alanlee » 17 Feb 2017 12:13

Pete26 wrote:A short video about the trial of Dr. Horst Fischer who was the last man guillotined in East Germany. At 2:04 into the clip, the death sentence is pronounced. He was guillotined in Leipzig on 8 July 1966. After his execution, the guillotine was never used in Germany again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC_TUoMWlzE

http://www.zeit.de/1966/14/tod-fuer-mord

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Fischer

France continued to use the guillotine for official executions until 1977. The last person executed by guillotine in France was Hamida Djandoubi.

https://deathpenaltynews.blogspot.com/2 ... -last.html

Wow, this real shock me. I have
never heard that Europen countries still carried out such horrible execution after WW2
Last edited by alanlee on 18 Feb 2017 02:09, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
fredric
Member
Posts: 855
Joined: 03 Dec 2004 04:19
Location: USA Princeton

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Postby fredric » 17 Feb 2017 17:28

Yes, France used guillotine up to 1977.
Check out the excellent "Bois de Justice" site. Much information, all in English. Then check out the
French site (given as a link on Bois de Justice) if you don't read French, use a translator function. Not
much info about Germany but huge amount about France and other locations (French colonies, prisons).

France still has several guillotines in storage.
Germany has many in museums. Others are in Belgian museums and one is even in the Vatican's Crime Museum.
Also check out the Ludwigsburg Crime Museum... a well-preserved Tegel is there as the "Rastatt" a post-war fallbeil. Two fallbeile
were constructed also immediately after the war for executions in Germany. Also used were Tegel's and even a Mannhardt.

Piotr1
Member
Posts: 324
Joined: 16 Sep 2007 05:24
Location: Poland

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Postby Piotr1 » 18 Feb 2017 08:27

...and one is even in the Vatican's Crime Museum...
==================================================================================================
This small but very interesting museum"Museo crimonologico Roma" now is an Italian Police(not Vatican) property.
There are TWO "ghigliotines" , a few others (italian version of guillotine) is stored in some italian museums-for example in Trapani

Piotr1
Member
Posts: 324
Joined: 16 Sep 2007 05:24
Location: Poland

Finally!!! Katowice fallbeil in museum

Postby Piotr1 » 18 Feb 2017 08:33

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
fredric
Member
Posts: 855
Joined: 03 Dec 2004 04:19
Location: USA Princeton

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Postby fredric » 18 Feb 2017 16:49

Piotr... iss gute.
Kind of tight space. Keeps people away but still can see this terrible machine.
I like the execution announcements surrounding the Tegel.
Most important, the museum did not "restore" the fallbeil as was done so poorly at Pancraz.
The paint is original from what I can see. You and I know this fallbeil since you located it
in Auschwitz storage. This is a classic Tegel, blade down, not chained up or
blocked, and possibly could still work. Is this in the Auschwitz museum?

Piotr1
Member
Posts: 324
Joined: 16 Sep 2007 05:24
Location: Poland

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Postby Piotr1 » 18 Feb 2017 22:44

Is this in the Auschwitz museum?[/quote]

No, not in Auschwitz. The guillotine is in Silesian Museum in Katowice

User avatar
fredric
Member
Posts: 855
Joined: 03 Dec 2004 04:19
Location: USA Princeton

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Postby fredric » 18 Feb 2017 23:04

Right. Ich bin doofus.
I believe you found it at Auschwitz storage.
New museum is good?
danke,c

Pete26
Member
Posts: 2650
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 02:19
Location: USA

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Postby Pete26 » 19 Feb 2017 01:28

fredric wrote:Piotr... iss gute.
Kind of tight space. Keeps people away but still can see this terrible machine.
I like the execution announcements surrounding the Tegel.
Most important, the museum did not "restore" the fallbeil as was done so poorly at Pancraz.
The paint is original from what I can see. You and I know this fallbeil since you located it
in Auschwitz storage. This is a classic Tegel, blade down, not chained up or
blocked, and possibly could still work. Is this in the Auschwitz museum?


If this is a permanent exhibit at the museum, it is somewhat odd.

Piotr1
Member
Posts: 324
Joined: 16 Sep 2007 05:24
Location: Poland

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Postby Piotr1 » 19 Feb 2017 08:30

[
If this is a permanent exhibit at the museum, it is somewhat odd.[/quote]
==============================================================================

This very modern and interesting museum is dedicated to the history of Upper Silesia ( Katowice is the capital of this area ) Such way( the guillotine is visible and the same time hidden) of permanent exhibition is purposeful. From the historical point of view(and also curator of museum ) "fallbeil" is only very,very small and not important part martyrology of polish nation during IIWW (550 victims versus a few millions)
Let's say it is kind of compromise between historical facts and (solely) unnecessary, bloody sensation and even excitement which guillotine can make today ( 72 years after the war) especially among young generation of the visitors...
BTW -for about seventy years the guillotine was not exhibited ,dismantled, forgotten, and stored somewhere in Auschwitz museum ( assembled only twice for making a movie) and furthermore before opening the museum(2015)many historians and journalists were opposed at all showing such gruesome device.
From my point of view, thanks God ,they not win
Silesian museum in Katowice is only 15 miles away from my town and not visited yet :-(
P.S. About two years ago the "lost forever/disappeared/sunk in Danube river" fallbeil from Stadelheim prison (The Sophie Scholl's guillotine) was "found "again somewhere in basement of Munich museum. There were many informations in mass media, but final decision management of Museum was not to show it in permanent exhibition....

Pete26
Member
Posts: 2650
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 02:19
Location: USA

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Postby Pete26 » 19 Feb 2017 12:20

According to sources I was able to find, Katowice fallbeil was also stored for a few years after WWII in the attic of the local Citizens's Militia headquarters building.

Guillotine after finding in Bogucice a few years was stored in the attic of the building of the Regional Headquarters of the Citizens' Militia in Katowice. Nobody was interested in it. In the end, however, it was discovered by the then representative of the Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland.


viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35191&p=1887106&hilit=Katowice+fallbeil#p1887106


What I find rather awkward about this exhibit is the fact that a visitor specifically interested in the victims of this machine would not be able to read any of the "bekanntmachung" posters associated with individual executions due to lack of space. Also, a full list of its victims that can be easily read by a museum visitor would be nice. It looks like the winch crank is missing.

I really liked the Ploznan fallbeil display, even though only a few parts of that fallbeil were left. They showed a life size photo of the original execution room with the fallbeil just behind the display. I guess I expected them to do the same for this fallbeil. Are there any photos of the fallbeil in its original execution room? Perhaps they only exist in some German archives.

Pete26
Member
Posts: 2650
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 02:19
Location: USA

Wolfenbüttel prison execution building

Postby Pete26 » 22 Feb 2017 07:22

An interesting slide show showing a 3 dimensional model of the Wolfenbüttel prison execution building. Click on each picture to stop the show. From the individual pictures one can see that the room on the right behind the guillotine was for the executioner and he could enter and leave this room from the hallway behind the execution room and also enter the execution room. The other room behind the guillotine on the left was the autopsy room.

http://www.gewerk.com/en/wolfenbuettel- ... tion-site/


Image
http://www.gewerk.com/wp-content/upload ... 00x600.png

Image
http://www.gewerk.com/wp-content/upload ... 00x600.jpg

Image
http://www.gewerk.com/wp-content/upload ... 00x600.jpg
The condemned prisoners were brought into the execution room through the door opening on the right. There was a black curtain dividing the room, hiding the guillotine so that when the condemned were brought in, they saw the closed curtain on the right of the entry doorway and on the left was a table with several persons seated around it as shown. This "anteroom" was the place where the death verdict and denial of clemency was read for the final time and identity of the prisoner was verified. Then the prisoner was turned over to the executioner, the curtain opened and the guillotine was revealed. The prisoner was seized by the executioner's assistants and was led to the guillotine. It typically took only about 3 to 6 seconds for the execution to be completed from that moment. The guillotine photo below was posted before. It was taken by an American soldier named Goodkind when the Wolfenbuettel prison was liberated. There was no tipping board (bascule) on this Mannhardt guillotine while Nazis were using it in Wolfenbuettel prison. Note that the entire back wall behind the guillotine was tiled all the way to the top to make blood cleanup after each execution easier.


Image
http://www.gewerk.com/wp-content/upload ... 00x600.jpg

Image
http://www.gewerk.com/wp-content/upload ... 00x600.jpg

Image
http://www.goodkindletters.com/images/G ... lotine.jpg

What they forgot to include in this model are two outside doors into the execution building which are shown in the photo below. The door on the left leads into the autopsy room, and the door on the right leads into the execution room part which housed the guillotine.
The outside door to the execution room enabled removal of the bodies easier without having to carry them through the building, and the door on the right leading into the execution room enabled the scharfrichter and his assistant to enter and leave the execution room without walking through the building. This allowed them to remain less conspicuous. The door leading to the execution room was bricked up at some point and it is not there today.

Image
http://kramerwf.de/fileadmin/user_uploa ... Wf1_01.JPG

A 1989 photo of the building shows only one door:

Image
http://www.gedenkstaetten-uebersicht.de ... /37_01.gif


Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot]