Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

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uberjude
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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

Postby uberjude » 19 Apr 2017 23:06

And I apologize, Histan--it was churlish of me to not include you. so here goes:

Let's ask a couple of simple questions.

1. Was it the aim of the Nazis to gain control over territories which they saw as being rightfully Germany? Answer: Yes.

2. Did the Communist government of the Soviet Union provide material support to the Germans' gaining control over such territory, both through agreeing to German territorial revisions in Poland as well as by providing them with resources that assisted them in subsequent conquests elsewhere answer: Yes.

The logical conclusion is that Stalin did support one of the prime aims of Nazism, assisting Germany in gaining control over territories they saw as being rightfully German. That is a simple historical fact, the truth of which is not dependent on the motivation of the Soviet Government for providing that support.


Gosh, this is fun.

histan
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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

Postby histan » 20 Apr 2017 00:05

Hi, I was being ironic.

My post was intended to show the nonsense of the argument that "collaborating with" equals "being a supporter of".

FDR and Winston Churchill collaborated with Communist Russia in the defeat of National Socialist Germany. That doesn't mean that they supported Stalin's communist ideology and it's other objectives. Equally, Stalin collaborated with FDR and Winston Churchill in the defeat of National Socialist Germany. That doesn't mean that he supported Capitalism. In Northern Ireland we have two political parties that collaborate with each other in the day to day governing of the province (although not at this particular moment!) but have diametrically opposed views on the long term future of the province. Because the DUP collaborates with Sinn Féin doesn't mean they support Irish Nationalism and vice versa.

Because Hitler collaborated with Zionists in allowing Jews to leave Germany doesn't automatically mean he was a supporter of Zionism.

Using the Northern Ireland analogy. Ian Paisley collaborated with Irish Nationalists in creating the Power Sharing Assembly but it is wrong to say, because of this, that Ian Paisley supported Irish Nationalism.

So I need more proof than the act of collaboration that Hitler was a "supporter" of Zionism.

Regards

John

uberjude
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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

Postby uberjude » 20 Apr 2017 01:01

Sorry if I came across wrong, Histan--I knew you were being ironic, I was just taking your point to show that this could be done, as you note, with any number of historical examples.

I believe we are in agreement here, but I actually did think it rude f me not to acknowledge your earlier post.

histan
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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

Postby histan » 20 Apr 2017 10:29

Sorry if I misread what you were trying to say, uberjude.

But it did give me a chance to find a better example in a UK context to show the error in using the argument that "collaborating with" means "supporting".

Regards

John

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

Postby Sid Guttridge » 20 Apr 2017 12:44

Hi Sergey,

So, if we both wrote the same thing and both meant the same thing, what is your problem?

In any event, it doesn't absolve you from addressing my earlier post. For the third time, here it is:

"Jews very much were "moving (or being moved) to "Israel" " before WWII.

According the British censuses, in 1922 there were 83,790 Jews in Palestine, by 1931 174,606 and by 1941 474,102.

174,000 of them reportedly arrived between 1933 and 1936, at which point the British limited immigration. Nevertheless, it would appear that between 1936 and 1941 at least another 100,000 must have arrived.

What is not clear from this is how many came from Nazi Germany.
"

Cheers,

Sid.

michael mills
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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

Postby michael mills » 20 Apr 2017 12:57

Uberjude,

You asked me this question:

Michael, I'm not arguing with you, I am seeking a clarification--i.e., I would like to know if your definition of "supporter" is a fair one, or if it is only applied in this specific case (which would, of course, raise questions about it's legitimacy).


I refer you to my first post in this thread. Here it is again:


I do not think it would be true to say that Hitler was a supporter of the core element of Zionist ideology, namely the foundation of a Jewish State in the geographic location where Israelite kingdoms had existed 2000 years ago, called in Hebrew "Erets Yisrael" = the land of the Jewish people.

However, it could be said that he provided practical support to the Zionist project of settling Jews in Erets Yisrael by forcing Jews to emigrate from Germany, and also by cooperating with the Zionist Organisation in facilitating the movement of the forced emigrants to Palestine.

There were also elements of Zionist ideology that corresponded to elements of Hitler's thinking, eg that Jews did not belong in Europe because they were a separate "race" from the European peoples, and not just Europeans with a different religion.


Any problems with that?

uberjude
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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

Postby uberjude » 21 Apr 2017 00:52

I do not think it would be true to say that Hitler was a supporter of the core element of Soviet Communist ideology, namely the foundation of Communist states throughout Europe.

However, it could be said that he provided practical support to the Bolshevik project of establish Communist rule over Eastern Europe, by signing a peace treaty with the Soviets, by destroying the Polish state, and by facilitating the Soviet seizure of the Baltic States, Eastern Poland, Bessarabia and Bukovina.

There were also elements of Soviet Communist ideology that corresponded to elements of Hitler's thinking, eg that Western, Liberal Capitalist democracies were a spent force, that the borders established by the post-Great War treaties should not persist, nor should the Western Powers continue to play a dominant role in world affairs.

Any problems with that?

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

Postby Sergey Romanov » 21 Apr 2017 06:21

> So, if we both wrote the same thing and both meant the same thing, what is your problem?

We didn't write the same thing. You quoted my words. If you can't keep the track of the conversation to the point of not knowing who wrote what you may as well not continue.

michael mills
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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

Postby michael mills » 21 Apr 2017 06:57

Uberjude,

I can see a clear difference between the assistance given by Hitler to the Zionist Organisation in its project of Jewish settlement in Palestine, and the assistance he provided to Stalin to destroy Poland and take control of large swathes of territory in Eastern Europe.

In the latter case, Hitler was doing something that was the opposite of what he really wanted to do, and that he was coerced into doing because it was the only way of ensuring that Stalin would not join the Anglo-French coalition against him.

In the former case, Hitler was not doing something that he specifically did not want to do, since he had no objection to Jews leaving Germany and settling in Palestine, and in fact rather liked the idea since it was one way of working towards his goal of making Germany Jew-free. Furthermore, it was something he did voluntarily because it accorded with one of his major goals, and was not something he was coerced into doing, since there is no way the Zionist Organisation could have coerced him.

uberjude
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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

Postby uberjude » 21 Apr 2017 12:17

I'm no asking if there is a difference, I'm asking if you have any objections to the following statement, which does, of course, recognize that Hitler was not a supporter of the ideology of communism or communist control. The issue, as you seem to note, is about "practical support." So again, any issues with this statement, by itself?:

I do not think it would be true to say that Hitler was a supporter of the core element of Soviet Communist ideology, namely the foundation of Communist states throughout Europe.

However, it could be said that he provided practical support to the Bolshevik project of establish Communist rule over Eastern Europe, by signing a peace treaty with the Soviets, by destroying the Polish state, and by facilitating the Soviet seizure of the Baltic States, Eastern Poland, Bessarabia and Bukovina.

There were also elements of Soviet Communist ideology that corresponded to elements of Hitler's thinking, eg that Western, Liberal Capitalist democracies were a spent force, that the borders established by the post-Great War treaties should not persist, nor should the Western Powers continue to play a dominant role in world affairs.

michael mills
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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

Postby michael mills » 21 Apr 2017 13:46

I have no objection to it. You can broadcast it in Gath if you want.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

Postby Sid Guttridge » 21 Apr 2017 14:16

Hi Sergey,

I rather think we did both mean the same thing by *Israel* but, leaving that aside, I would ask you for the fourth time to address the substance of my earlier post, rather than its punctuation:

"Jews very much were "moving (or being moved) to "Israel" " before WWII.

According the British censuses, in 1922 there were 83,790 Jews in Palestine, by 1931 174,606 and by 1941 474,102.

174,000 of them reportedly arrived between 1933 and 1936, at which point the British limited immigration. Nevertheless, it would appear that between 1936 and 1941 at least another 100,000 must have arrived.

What is not clear from this is how many came from Nazi Germany.
"


Cheers,

A persistent Sid.

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wm
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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

Postby wm » 21 Apr 2017 19:27

When the Zionists try to make the rest of the world believe that the new national consciousness of the Jews will be satisfied by the establishment of a Jewish State in Palestine, the Jews thereby adopt another means to dupe the simple-minded Gentile. They have not the slightest intention of building up a Jewish State in Palestine so as to live in it. What they really are aiming at is to establish a central organization for their international swindling and cheating. As sovereign State, this cannot be controlled by any of the other States. Therefore it can serve as a refuge for swindlers who have been found out and at the same time a high-school for the training of other swindlers.
Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf
Last edited by wm on 21 Apr 2017 23:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

Postby Sergey Romanov » 21 Apr 2017 22:05

> I rather think we did both mean the same thing by

You may say so now but you quoted me to disagree with me. So we cannot mean the same thing.

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Sarge3525
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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

Postby Sarge3525 » 21 Apr 2017 22:10

Depends what is meant here by 'Zionism'.
Hitler in his speeches was opposed to settling Jews in Palestinia, because of the conflict with Arabs it would cause.
Also understanding the German policy in colonial possessions is important here. During WW2, Germany was mostly pro-Arab because it could possibly provide a fifth column to the Afrika Korps against their enemies (England mainly). Germany also looked for resistance groups within Mandatory Palestine. It was actually not opposed to collaborating with Jewish groups, it's simply that most Zionist movements preferred to collaborate with their traditional ally, Britain. It was a complex situation, and post-war many of these same Zionist groups turned on the British and bombed them. But during WW2, most Jews in Palestine were quite united in their fear of the Germans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/200_days_of_dread

So was Hitler a Zionist?
A Zionist I believe first of all can only be Jewish.
Second the German/Hitler intent was certainly for the Jews to be concentrated in one state, that state could have been any place with space that would not cause trouble. Is that Zionism? I believe that is pretty far apart from the Zionist intent of recovering the holy land of the levant.


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