Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

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wm
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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

#76

Post by wm » 26 Apr 2017, 14:35

BarKokhba wrote:It's disappointing to read your repetition of the absurd canard that "World Jewry" was, (or is), a "powerful political force...capable to influence politics in many countries..." In the 1930's ???
But, please, let's forget Africa, there was nothing worth influence there.
In the US, it was maybe about 2%, but it was much more in key states like California and New York (with lots of electoral votes). And that was sufficient to make any politician or a presidential candidate weak at the knees.

Felix Frankfurter (a member of Phi Beta Kappa), Walter Lippmann, Horace Kallen graduated from Harvard well before the Great War. And they were the cream of American elites.
Frankfurter was appointed to the Supreme Court in 1939 (although in Poland a Jew was appointed to the Supreme Court earlier and achieved more), was a close adviser and friend of Roosevelt.
More Roosevelt's Jewish friends and advisers: Stephen Wise, Henry Morgenthau, Bernard Baruch, Isaiah Bowman, Samuel Rosenman, James Warburg, Louis Brandeis.
Those people could visit Roosevelt and (other members of his administration), talk informally with him whenever they wished - because they were his friends or close advisers.
How many times were Polish leaders able to talk with Roosevelt? A few. And formally. And they were funny speaking strangers from a land nobody knew anything about anyway.
See the difference?
The American Jewish Congress, the World Jewish Congress were influential, and could influence American politics. Were the "lesser" people like the Poles able to that? No.

Yes there were masses of impoverished Jews in Eastern Europe (living among even more impoverished masses of "natives"), but still the Jews were a large part of the elites, and the middle class. In Poland the lower middle class was mostly Jewish.
The Polish Jews owned a large part of the Polish economy, dominated in show business (lots of first rate stars: actors, singers, writers), the Polish movie industry was owned by Polish Jewish 100% (and actually some say Hollywood was owned by former Polish Jews too).

Of course I don't mention the USSR, there were no Jews or even Russian there. Only a bunch of rootless Stalinists.

And btw, breitbart is rabidly pro-Israel. See some Prager University videos with Israel in the title on youtube. But don't watch the others they might convert you to conservatism :)
Last edited by wm on 26 Apr 2017, 14:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

#77

Post by Terry Duncan » 26 Apr 2017, 14:50

wm wrote:Of course I don't mention the USSR, there were no Jews or even Russian there. Only a bunch of rootless Stalinists.
Not too sure exactly what you mean by this comment, as it is rather obvious there were rather a lot of Russians in the USSR as well as many Jews. Indeed there had been quite a lot of very influential Jews in the initial Communist state, but Stalin had killed off most of them by the time of WWII.


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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

#78

Post by wm » 26 Apr 2017, 14:59

Stalin killed people, not Jews. Not because they were Jewish, but because they weren't sufficiently Stalinist.
The Jewish, the Russian communists were genetically Jews and Russians, but nationality is not genetic but culture.
They represented a rootless ideology and an alien culture connected to it, not the Russians or the Jews, or even the Russian culture.

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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

#79

Post by Terry Duncan » 26 Apr 2017, 15:11

wm wrote:Stalin killed people, not Jews. Not because they were Jewish, but because they weren't sufficiently Stalinist.
Stalin killed people who he believed were a threat to him, especially people he felt likely to conspire together. This accounts for people like Trotsky, Kamenev, and Zinoviev fell into this group, as did the doctors in the 'Doctors Plot' where the purge was mostly averted because Stalin died. Stalin was noted for his distrust of Jews and his general anti-Semitism, so whilst it is correct he killed a lot of people for many reasons, he also distrusted many because they were Jews, and thus found themselves on the 'to be purged' lists.

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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

#80

Post by BarKokhba » 26 Apr 2017, 18:37

To wm and other recent posters, a few facts:
The World Jewish Congress a Jewish advocacy org, not a political org, began only in 1936, too late to be an effective 'power' on the world stage in the 1930s.

Re Poland, Jews represented 10% of the Polish population in the 1930s, but outside of medical, university, publishing and the arts, were not an 'economic power' in intra war Poland. Jews were facing major disruptions at the time, after the Polish-Soviet War, the Depression, the rise of fascism there. Although 75% of Jews lived in cities, many were impoverished or eked out a living in small trades. From the death of Pilsudski 1935, pogroms and boycotts were regular events against Jewish businesses. The Catholic Trade Unions in 1937 began economic legislation against Jews, so again, this shows how little political power Jews had at that time. Also, the Jewish community since 1933 was flooded by peniless refugees from Nazi Germany, while 50,000 Polish Jews in Germany were persecuted as 'stateless'. In politics, Jews never had more than 15 members in the Polish Sejm (parliament) in the 1930s, and these were divided into 5 small Jewish parties, or members of majority Polish parties, so they had no real political power at that time.
So please stop with the conspiracy theories that Jews controlled the Polish economy or political process at that, or any time.

Re Soviet Russia- Stalin killed Jews for being Jews, not just for being 'bad communists'. After a brief love affair with Jewish culture in the 1920s, Stalin ruthlessly ended Jewish religious and cultural life for all Jews in the USSR. He had all synagogues and religious schools closed, sent thousands of rabbis and their families to the Gulag, and had Zionists and Jewish Bundists (trade unionists).murdered. Only in the 1960s was Judaism 'rehabiliated' but under Big Brother watchdogs. Jews were allowed to leave the Soviet Union only in the late 1970s-1980s.
See www.kehilalinks.jewishgen.org (poland 1918-1939)
www.yivoencyclopedia.org (Jews in eastern europe)

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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

#81

Post by Gorque » 26 Apr 2017, 18:51

From the Peel Commission Report:
Chapter II. -The War and the Mandate

In order to obtain Arab support in the War, the British Government promised the Sharif of Mecca in 1915 that, in the event of an Allied victory, the greater part of the Arab provinces of the Turkish Empire would become independent. The Arabs understood that Palestine would be included in the sphere of independence.

In order to obtain the support of World Jewry, the British Government in 1917 issued the Balfour Declaration. The Jews understood that, if the experiment of establishing a Jewish National Home succeeded and a sufficient number of Jews went to Palestine, the National Home might develop in course of time into a Jewish State.

At the end of the War, the Mandate System was accepted by the Allied and Associated Powers as the vehicle for the execution of the policy of the Balfour Declaration, and, after a period of delay, the Mandate for Palestine was approved by the League of Nations and the United States. The Mandate itself is mainly concerned with specific obligations of equal weight--positive obligations as to the establishment of the National Home, negative obligations as to safeguarding the rights of the Arabs. The Mandate also involves the general obligation, implicit in every Mandate, to fulfil the primary purpose of the Mandate System as expressed in the first paragraph of Article 22 of the Covenant.

This means that the well-being and development" of the people concerned are the first charge on the Mandatory, and implies that they will in due course be enabled to stand by themselves.

The association of the policy of the Balfour Declaration with the Mandate System implied the belief that Arab hostility to the former would presently be overcome, owing to the economic advantages which Jewish immigration was expected to bring to Palestine as a whole.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/tex ... ion-report

see also p. 24, ¶ 19 and following from full report: https://fada.birzeit.edu/bitstream/20.5 ... ission.pdf

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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

#82

Post by wm » 26 Apr 2017, 20:13

BarKokhba wrote:Re Poland, Jews represented 10% of the Polish population in the 1930s, but outside of medical, university, publishing and the arts, were not an 'economic power' in intra war Poland.
With all due respect, what you wrote is randomly inaccurate. It's not supported by primary sources, at all.
Shortly before the WW2 the Polish Jews owned about 220,000 retail outlets in Poland. I don't know, but I suspect the Jews don't have that many of them in Israel even today. Majority of Polish craftsmen/artisans were Jews.
At the same time a family of a barely literate Jewish plumber in Warsaw employed a female servant (nothing unusual many, if not majority, Varsovian Jews did too) and owned a large villa (well, a wooden one, after all poverty is poverty) in a nice holiday resort nearby.
Yes, there were a few (quite irregular) dust-ups between Poles and Jews, a pogrom is a big word. Is it a pogrom if a Jew shots to death an innocent man out of spite, and then his enraged colleagues beat up to death two innocent Jews in revenge, as it happened during the most famous one in Przytyk? And there were boycotts, invariably short lived and localized.

Guess what, statistically in Poland the Jews enjoyed better health, better living conditions, lived longer than the Poles. Of course in comparison with the US and Britain Poland was a shitty place. But this condition was shared equally among everyone who lived there. There were many conflicts there, after all conflicts happen even in non-shitty places. But most of the conflicts didn't involve Jews, were more bloody, and with more (much more) victims.

Maybe we should see what Raymond Buell, an American writer wrote about Poland in 1939:
The American visitor unaccustomed to the Polish tradition wonders why more interracial disputes have not occurred when, on visiting a typical village, he sees the Orthodox Jew, wearing his skullcap, black boots, long double-breasted coat, curls and beard, mingling with the Poles proper. The government may think it is in its interest to support the Orthodox Jews against their more assimilated brethren, but the foreign observer is nevertheless struck by the readiness of the ordinary Poles to accept the assimilated or baptized Jew as an equal. In government departments, in the army, in the banks, and in newspapers, one finds the baptized Jews occupying important positions. This class, which in Nazi Germany is subject to bitter persecution, has been freely accepted in Poland. With the growth of nationalist spirit among both Jews and Poles, the trend toward assimilation seems to have been arrested. It remains true, however, that the Polish attitude towards the Jew is governed by racial considerations to a lesser degree than the attitude of other peoples.
and this:
the demonstrable over-representation of Jews in the economic elites of many continental European countries was itself a potent force for creating and engendering antisemitism, arguably the most important single force which persisted over the generations. [...] the fate of other ‘entrepreneurial minorities’ was, often, similar to that of the Jews in continental Europe. [...]
Over-representation in the economic elite of a visible ethnic minority of the degree found in Poland or Hungary was certain to cause trouble regardless of the identity of the group.
from: W. D. Rubinstein, Jews in the Economic Elites of Western Nations and Antisemitism
And I forgot, the Polish Jews enjoyed local self-governments, with free elected leaders, and the right to raise taxes (for their synagogues, schools, functionaries, rabbis and whatever else), and even the right to punish those not sufficiently Jewish - like vocal atheists. Do Jews have that in your country? :)
Last edited by wm on 27 Apr 2017, 01:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

#83

Post by Terry Duncan » 26 Apr 2017, 20:17

BarKokhba wrote:Re Soviet Russia- Stalin killed Jews for being Jews, not just for being 'bad communists'.
It is somewhat strange then that there were so many Jews left when the Nazis invaded if this were even close to being correct. Stalin didn't trust Jews, he did not just kill them for being Jewish. Curiously the site you link to does not say Stalin that had Trotsky, Kamenev or Zinoviev killed for being Jewish. From their respective entries;

Trotsky,

http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article ... otsky_Leon

After Lenin’s death, a power struggle broke out, with Trotsky and his adherents opposing Stalin, Zinov’ev, and Kamenev. However, in 1926 he joined forces with Zinov’ev and Kamenev in an attempt to check Stalin’s influence within the party. Trotsky finally lost in this power struggle when the Fifteenth Party Conference in December 1927 identified Trotskyism as a political trend, condemned it as heresy, and expelled Trotsky from the party. He had been excluded from the Central Committee two months earlier. Accused of antirevolutionary activity in January 1928, Trotsky was sentenced to exile in Alma-Ata (Kazakhstan) and banished from the USSR with his wife and son to Turkey in 1929.

In exile, Trotsky maintained contact with groups that were dissatisfied with Stalin’s policies and attempted to establish a new Communist International, independent of Moscow. Trotsky’s Soviet citizenship was revoked in 1932. After the 1936 show trials in Moscow, during which Trotsky was accused of plotting Stalin’s assassination, he settled in Mexico, where he lived until he was assassinated by an NKVD agent.


Kamenev,

http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article ... enev_Iurii

Kamenev would never again show the political independence that was his hallmark in 1917, yet he remained a leader of the first order in the young Soviet state. He was appointed chairman of the Moscow Soviet (1918), member of the Politburo (1919), Lenin’s deputy chairman of the Council of People’s Commissars and the Council on Labor and Defense (1922), and Lenin’s replacement in the latter position after his death (1924). He was also chief editor of Lenin’s collected works and headed the V. I. Lenin Institute. A triumvirate he formed with Zinov’ev and Stalin was initially victorious in the struggle for Lenin’s succession, but by 1926 Stalin had outmaneuvered Kamenev and Zinov’ev and pushed them out of all their posts. A short-lived alliance with Trotsky doomed the pair to further defeat and humiliation: expulsion from the Communist Party in 1927, repeated acts of public submission to Stalin to gain readmission, arrest in 1935, and a tragic appearance as “stars” of a staged trial in August 1936, where both were sentenced to death.


Zinoviev,

http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article ... _Evseevich

According to his party colleagues, Zinov’ev was ruthless in his pursuit of power and was inclined to intrigue. Originally, he sided with Stalin and Kamenev against Trotsky’s Left Opposition. Later Stalin had him removed from power, accusing him of “anti-Leninist” and fractional activity. In 1925, he headed the New Opposition and was censured at the Fourteenth Party Congress. In 1926, Zinov’ev and Trotsky headed the United Opposition directed against Stalin, but were soon defeated by Stalin. In July 1926, Zinov’ev was excluded from the Politburo and in 1927 from the Central Committee and the party. In 1928, he was readmitted to the party and was appointed rector of Kazan University. From 1931, Zinov’ev was a member of the collegium of the People’s Commissariat of Education. In 1932, he was once again expelled from the party and exiled to Kustanai (Qostanay, Kazakhstan) until 1933, when he was readmitted, only to be expelled again in 1934. That year, after the assassination of Sergei Kirov, Zinov’ev was arrested and indicted for incitement to murder. During his trial in 1935, he confessed to “moral responsibility” for Kirov’s death and was sentenced to 10 years’ imprisonment.

In August 1936, Zinov’ev was accused, with Kamenev and others, of counterrevolutionary activity, Trotskyism, terrorism, and espionage. After physical and psychological torture, he confessed at his trial and was convicted and executed by a firing squad. He was rehabilitated by a plenum of the Supreme Court of the USSR in 1988.


Not a single word about Stalin having any of them killed for being Jewish, though each passage does give a pretty good identification of why Stalin wanted them out of the way. Nowhere did I say he did not act against Jews, though again, he acted against many different groups within the Soviet society, especially where he felt organised resistence to his policies existed or would be likely to find people sympathetic to such sentiments.

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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

#84

Post by wm » 26 Apr 2017, 20:26

BarKokhba wrote:Re Soviet Russia- Stalin killed Jews for being Jews, not just for being 'bad communists'.
Between 1937 and 1938 150,000 Soviet Poles were murdered because of their ethnic origin during so called Polish Operation of the NKVD, it's a proven fact. Some estimate the number of victims higher, maybe a quarter of a million. Their churches were razed to the ground, their culture wiped out.
Countless others were murdered during Ukrainian, Latvian, Finnish, Estonian or even Romanian operations of the NKVD.
4% of all Mongolians were killed, their monasteries destroyed and almost all the monks murdered - by the Soviets.
You were saying the Jews were persecuted? What about an outright genocide of ethnic groups?

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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

#85

Post by wm » 27 Apr 2017, 00:48

Terry Duncan wrote:It is somewhat strange then that there were so many Jews left when the Nazis invaded if this were even close to being correct.
There weren't really any anti-Jewish purges in the Stalinist USSR, except a rather light and limited one shorty before Stalin's death.
But two times they purged (to death) Jewish elites of the Birobidzhan Jewish Autonomous Region (a micro "Israel" existing to this day as a Potemkin entity) and that wasn't fun at all.

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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

#86

Post by Terry Duncan » 27 Apr 2017, 02:14

wm wrote:
Terry Duncan wrote:It is somewhat strange then that there were so many Jews left when the Nazis invaded if this were even close to being correct.
There weren't really any anti-Jewish purges in the Stalinist USSR, except a rather light and limited one shorty before Stalin's death.
But two times they purged (to death) Jewish elites of the Birobidzhan Jewish Autonomous Region (a micro "Israel" existing to this day as a Potemkin entity) and that wasn't fun at all.
I agree, my point was that Stalin did not just kill Jews for being Jewish, he killed elites, people he felt opposed him, and some Jews fell into these categories rather than just being purged for their ethnic or religious nature alone.

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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

#87

Post by BarKokhba » 27 Apr 2017, 03:47

WM, again your "facts' are not randomly innacurate but purposely innaccurate. You originally stated that Jews in the 1930s exerted some sort of global political power. That has been completely refuted. That idea is totally refuted by the realities on the ground at that time, country by country, and by the experience of what actually occurred during the 1930s in Poland, Soviet Russia and expecially in Germany, and subsequently during the Holocaust. Just because Jews owned retail stores in Poland does not mean they exerted some sort of political power there. Yours is an accusatory statement perpetuating the myth that Jewish political/economic domination (somewhere, anywhere) justified the rightist reactions leading to Jewish destruction. Your responses are dog whistle anti semitism.
As far as Stalin's Russia, I never said there were pogroms. But Jews were murdered by Beria's forces one by one or sent to the Gulag on Stalin's orders for being Jews, just as clergy and members of the Russian Orthodox Church and Old Followers were. This is indisputable. If you want to hold on to blood libel notions that Jews dominated (fill in the blank), and today dominate (fill in the blank), and therefore deserve what they get, then J'accuse.

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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

#88

Post by Terry Duncan » 27 Apr 2017, 05:44

BarKokhba wrote:But Jews were murdered by Beria's forces one by one or sent to the Gulag on Stalin's orders for being Jews,
This would seem to indicate that you refer only to the period of the 'Doctors Plot' or are somewhat unfamiliar with the Soviet secret police, as Beria was only in charge from 1938 - 1953. Thousands were sent to the Gulags or purged, for many different reasons, but not just for being Jewish iirc. Is there any chance you can post some evidence to support what you are claiming?
BarKokhba wrote:just as clergy and members of the Russian Orthodox Church and Old Followers were. This is indisputable.
It is very disputable as to them being purged simply for being clergy or members of the church, as against being involved in opposition to the Communists in one way or another. To quote from Wikipedia;
The main target of the anti-religious campaign in the 1920s and 1930s was the Russian Orthodox Church, which had the largest congregation. Nearly all of its clergy, and many of its believers, were shot or sent to labor camps. Theological schools were closed, and church publications were prohibited.

The sixth sector of the OGPU, led by Yevgeny Tuchkov, began aggressively arresting and executing bishops, priests, and devout worshippers, such as Metropolitan Veniamin in Petrograd in 1922 for refusing to accede to the demand to hand in church valuables (including sacred relics). In the time between 1927 and 1940, the number of Orthodox Churches in the Russian Republic fell from 29,584 to less than 500. Between 1917 and 1935, 130,000 Orthodox priests were arrested. Of these, 95,000 were put to death. Many thousands of victims of persecution became recognized in a special canon of saints known as the "new martyrs and confessors of Russia".

In January 1918 Patriarch Tikhon proclaimed anathema to the Bolsheviks (without explicitly naming them), which further antagonized relations. When Tikhon died in 1925, Soviet authorities forbade patriarchal elections to be held. Patriarchal locum tenens (acting Patriarch) Metropolitan Sergius (Stragorodsky, 1887–1944), going against the opinion of a major part of the church's parishes, in 1927 issued a declaration accepting the Soviet authority over the church as legitimate, pledging the church's cooperation with the government and condemning political dissent within the church. By this declaration Sergius granted himself authority that he, being a deputy of imprisoned Metropolitan Peter and acting against his will, had no right to assume according to the XXXIV Apostolic canon, which led to a split with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia abroad and the Russian True Orthodox Church (Russian Catacomb Church) within the Soviet Union, as they allegedly remained faithful to the Canons of the Apostles, declaring the part of the church led by Metropolitan Sergius schism, sometimes coined Sergianism. Due to this canonical disagreement it is disputed which church has been the legitimate successor to the Russian Orthodox Church that had existed before 1925.

Moreover, in the 1929 elections, the Orthodox Church attempted to formulate itself as a full-scale opposition group to the Communist Party, and attempted to run candidates of its own against the Communist candidates. Article 124 of the 1936 Soviet Constitution officially allowed for freedom of religion within the Soviet Union, and along with initial statements of it being a multi-candidate election, the Church again attempted to run its own religious candidates in the 1937 elections. However the support of multicandidate elections was retracted several months before the elections were held and in neither 1929 nor 1937 were any candidates of the Orthodox Church elected.

After Nazi Germany's attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, Joseph Stalin revived the Russian Orthodox Church to intensify patriotic support for the war effort. On September 4, 1943, Metropolitans Sergius, Alexy and Nikolay had a meeting with Stalin and received a permission to convene a council on September 8, 1943, which elected Sergius Patriarch of Moscow and all the Rus'. This is considered by some as violation of the XXX Apostolic canon, as no church hierarch could be consecrated by secular authorities. A new patriarch was elected, theological schools were opened, and thousands of churches began to function. The Moscow Theological Academy Seminary, which had been closed since 1918, was re-opened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_O ... Stalin_era
BarKokhba wrote:If you want to hold on to blood libel notions that Jews dominated (fill in the blank), and today dominate (fill in the blank), and therefore deserve what they get, then J'accuse.
So far I have said none of these things so it is curious you want to bring them up.

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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

#89

Post by gebhk » 27 Apr 2017, 07:56

And not much of the preceding page or so has anything to do with the topic. Whether it is true or not, clearly AH did believe in a Jewish worldwide influence - I don't think that is in dispute. For the purposes of this discussion, that should be sufficient.

Incidentally power and influence are not the same thing, nor is political influence the same as cultural influence.

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Re: Was Hitler a supporter of Zionism in the early 1930s?

#90

Post by Sergey Romanov » 27 Apr 2017, 09:03

If we are talking about *religious* Jews, they were subject to persecution in the same proportion as people belonging to other religions.

If we are talking about ethnic Jews (who could belong to any religion or none), there is nothing to suggest that they were persecuted as such before the last few years of Stalin's reign. There is no evidence that the antisemitic factor played a role in the murder of Trotsky, Kamenev, Zinoviev et al.

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