Jewish "race"

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nora93
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Jewish "race"

Postby nora93 » 02 Oct 2017 03:13

I know that before WWII "race" was used as a synonymous of "nation". In that sense it's fair to talk about a Jewish race.

But Nazis thought of Jews as a biological race.

How did Nazis deal with their system 's inconsistencies ?

Such as Jews have nothing to do with "Aryans" and intermixing between the two should be avoided at any cost but Northeast Asians are fine when there are arguably much more German looking Jews than German looking Northeast Asians and a German /Jewish individual is much more likely to appear totally German than a German / Northeast Asian one.

Also Nazis used to point out that Jews (and even more Russians ) were inferior and alien because of their so-called Asiatic/Mongol /Turkic. Yet they saw no problem in accepting Japanese who are 100 % Asiatic as Aryans and equal to Germans.

Also Nazis had established a sort of one drop rule for Jewish ancestry (Mischlinge's system ). Did they really believe than Kurds or Indians (who were considered Eastern Aryans by Nazis) were more Germans than individuals who were 3/4 Germans and 1/4 Jewish ?

Were these theories accepted by the bulk of the German population ?

I read in Between Dignity and Despair: Jewish Life in Nazi Germany (by Marion A. Kaplan ) that it had happened that Nazis (before the war) refused to believe that some individuals were Jews because these individuals didn't look like what the Nazis expected Jews to look like (bad looking, very dark, hooked nose ...). Was this reaction from Nazis common (both in the first years of Nazism and during the war ) ?

Also how did Nazis explain the existence of Nordic looking Jews and of "Jewish " looking Germans ?

Individuals who were 1/8 Jewish did not suffer from official discriminations (except for a few things ) and were considered Germans. But were there social discriminations (as in individuals who 'd refuse to marry someone because they had a Jewish great grandparent) ?

Did peer pressure play a role in creating this image of Jews as a biological /racial threat ? Like people who did not believe in Nazi views but who pretended to do to avoid being ostracised.


Hitler wrote :"We use the term of Jewish race as a matter of convenience, for in reality and from the genetic point of view there is no such thing as the Jewish race". Any thoughts ?

Did Nazis themselves believe in these racial theories about Jews ?

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wm
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Re: Jewish "race"

Postby wm » 02 Oct 2017 17:08

The key concept of Nazism was the Volk - the national community, defined by its language, culture, and customs.
The Volk had to be protected at all costs because its survival depended on its internal cohesion and strength - as the world was dangerous, dog eat dog kind a place, where only the strong survived and thrived.

And as it happened one of the most dangerous "dogs" were the Jews.
Not because they were dangerous like other major powers (for example France or Russia) were. They were dangerous because they were destroying the Volk from within.

The Jews weren't "bad guys" because their race was deficient and parasitical.
Their race was deficient and parasitical because they were "bad guys" - which was proved (like for example in Mein Kampf) by citing numerous examples of their claimed deficient, parasitical, anti-social behaviour.
So as long Kurds or Indians didn't exhibit similar tendencies they were safe.

It should be remembered most of the racial ideas were optional, some say even Hitler abandoned them eventually, and used them for opportunistic reasons only.
To be a good Nazi it was sufficient to believe in supremacy and importance of the Volk, to badmouth the Jews, and basically to be killed at Stalingrad.

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Re: Jewish "race"

Postby DavidFrankenberg » 02 Oct 2017 23:31

nora93 wrote:Hitler wrote :"We use the term of Jewish race as a matter of convenience, for in reality and from the genetic point of view there is no such thing as the Jewish race". Any thoughts ?

Did Nazis themselves believe in these racial theories about Jews ?


Take a look at the Lukacs' quote i wrote here viewtopic.php?f=6&t=230144

In my opinion, it proves the versatility of Hitler's mind. But maybe it is a fake versatility. Look at what he truly did : he did order the killing of Jews as a race. Jews with "aryan look" like you said were shot as well as jews with "jewish look". Germans with "jewish look" were not killed at all.

One day, Himmler saw a shooting of jews in the eastern front. He saw among the victims a little boy with a true face of an aryan (blond hair, blue eyes etc). As Himmler was surprised, he asked if the boy was a real jew, if there was no mistake. The answer was : there is no mistake, he is jewish despite an "aryan look". So the SS shot the boy with the others. It is said that Himmler was a litlle bit disturbed by the story.

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wm
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Re: Jewish "race"

Postby wm » 03 Oct 2017 02:03

To be quite correct, legally the Jews weren't defined as members of a Jewish race, but as members of the Jewish religion.
Only religious affiliation was relevant and nothing else. Aryan look, blond hair, blue eyes were inadmissible.
In the occupied territories the definition was broader, and additionally allowed the affiliation with Jewry to be established by other circumstances.

1) A Jew is anyone who descended from at least three grandparents who were fully Jewish by race. § 2, par. 2, second sentence will apply. [One grandparent shall be considered as full-blooded if he or she belonged to the Jewish religious community]
(2) A Jew is also anyone who descended from two fully Jewish grandparents, if:
(a) he belonged to the Jewish religious community at the time this law was issued or joined the community later;
(b) he was married to a Jewish person at the time the law was issued or married one subsequently;
(c) he is the offspring from a marriage with a Jew, [...]
(d) he is the offspring of an extramarital relationship with a Jew, according to Section 1, and will
be born out of wedlock after July 31, 1936.
The Reich Citizenship Law of September 15, 1935

nora93
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Re: Jewish "race"

Postby nora93 » 10 Oct 2017 19:55

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
nora93 wrote:Hitler wrote :"We use the term of Jewish race as a matter of convenience, for in reality and from the genetic point of view there is no such thing as the Jewish race". Any thoughts ?

Did Nazis themselves believe in these racial theories about Jews ?


Take a look at the Lukacs' quote i wrote here viewtopic.php?f=6&t=230144

In my opinion, it proves the versatility of Hitler's mind. But maybe it is a fake versatility. Look at what he truly did : he did order the killing of Jews as a race. Jews with "aryan look" like you said were shot as well as jews with "jewish look". Germans with "jewish look" were not killed at all.

One day, Himmler saw a shooting of jews in the eastern front. He saw among the victims a little boy with a true face of an aryan (blond hair, blue eyes etc). As Himmler was surprised, he asked if the boy was a real jew, if there was no mistake. The answer was : there is no mistake, he is jewish despite an "aryan look". So the SS shot the boy with the others. It is said that Himmler was a litlle bit disturbed by the story.



My point was how could Nazis justify the existence of "Jewish " looking Germans and German looking Jews if according to them Germans and Jews had absolutely nothing in common.

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Re: Jewish "race"

Postby DavidFrankenberg » 11 Oct 2017 14:24

nora93 wrote:My point was how could Nazis justify the existence of "Jewish " looking Germans and German looking Jews if according to them Germans and Jews had absolutely nothing in common.

Nazis knew jews were melting a bit with aryan race, and that's why they hated jews : they were "corrupting" the german blood.

As nazis wanted to purify to german blood, they instaured the famous Nremberg's laws defining who was and who was not to be considered as jewish. See Wm's post.

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Re: Jewish "race"

Postby nora93 » 11 Oct 2017 16:46

wm wrote:The key concept of Nazism was the Volk - the national community, defined by its language, culture, and customs.
The Volk had to be protected at all costs because its survival depended on its internal cohesion and strength - as the world was dangerous, dog eat dog kind a place, where only the strong survived and thrived.

And as it happened one of the most dangerous "dogs" were the Jews.
Not because they were dangerous like other major powers (for example France or Russia) were. They were dangerous because they were destroying the Volk from within.

The Jews weren't "bad guys" because their race was deficient and parasitical.
Their race was deficient and parasitical because they were "bad guys" - which was proved (like for example in Mein Kampf) by citing numerous examples of their claimed deficient, parasitical, anti-social behaviour.
So as long Kurds or Indians didn't exhibit similar tendencies they were safe.


But it was possible to adopt a neutral attitude towards Kurds or Indians (which anyway would have been a much more positive one than the one towards Jews ) without considering them Aryans.

wm wrote: It should be remembered most of the racial ideas were optional, some say even Hitler abandoned them eventually, and used them for opportunistic reasons only.
To be a good Nazi it was sufficient to believe in supremacy and importance of the Volk, to badmouth the Jews, and basically to be killed at Stalingrad.


This is only true concerning ideas towards non Jews (Slavs, Turkic people. ..).
Last edited by nora93 on 11 Oct 2017 16:59, edited 1 time in total.

nora93
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Re: Jewish "race"

Postby nora93 » 11 Oct 2017 16:52

wm wrote:To be quite correct, legally the Jews weren't defined as members of a Jewish race, but as members of the Jewish religion.
Only religious affiliation was relevant and nothing else. Aryan look, blond hair, blue eyes were inadmissible.
In the occupied territories the definition was broader, and additionally allowed the affiliation with Jewry to be established by other circumstances.

1) A Jew is anyone who descended from at least three grandparents who were fully Jewish by race. § 2, par. 2, second sentence will apply. [One grandparent shall be considered as full-blooded if he or she belonged to the Jewish religious community]
(2) A Jew is also anyone who descended from two fully Jewish grandparents, if:
(a) he belonged to the Jewish religious community at the time this law was issued or joined the community later;
(b) he was married to a Jewish person at the time the law was issued or married one subsequently;
(c) he is the offspring from a marriage with a Jew, [...]
(d) he is the offspring of an extramarital relationship with a Jew, according to Section 1, and will
be born out of wedlock after July 31, 1936.
The Reich Citizenship Law of September 15, 1935



They did this because they didn't possess DNA test or another 100% efficient way to detect Jewish "blood ".

Obviously to Nazis "Jewishness " was much more than following Judaism.

nora93
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Re: Jewish "race"

Postby nora93 » 11 Oct 2017 17:09

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
nora93 wrote:My point was how could Nazis justify the existence of "Jewish " looking Germans and German looking Jews if according to them Germans and Jews had absolutely nothing in common.

Nazis knew jews were melting a bit with aryan race, and that's why they hated jews : they were "corrupting" the german blood.



But they still persecuted religious Polish Jews who had no intention or desire to mix with "Aryans"or non Jews in general.
These Jews were actually worried about the growing intermarriage rate among their fellow tribesmen and feared assimilation.

DavidFrankenberg wrote: As nazis wanted to purify to german blood, they instaured the famous Nremberg's laws defining who was and who was not to be considered as jewish. See Wm's post.


They forbade marriage between Jews and Germans for the sake of racial purity but they tolerated marriage between Germans and Japanese ...

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Re: Jewish "race"

Postby DavidFrankenberg » 12 Oct 2017 18:26

nora93 wrote:But they still persecuted religious Polish Jews who had no intention or desire to mix with "Aryans"or non Jews in general.


I understand what you mean, but thats not how the nazis saw the things. Indeed, in Germany prior to 1939 there were many polish jews living in Germany, even illegally.

These Jews were actually worried about the growing intermarriage rate among their fellow tribesmen and feared assimilation.
Yes, the Jews got their own extremists.

They forbade marriage between Jews and Germans for the sake of racial purity but they tolerated marriage between Germans and Japanese ...
How many german-japanese marriage happened ? So few. Japan is so far away from Germany. The European jews were millions not far from Germany, very close indeed. Jews were a more serous "threat" for the Germans than the Japanese.

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stg 44
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Re: Jewish "race"

Postby stg 44 » 12 Oct 2017 19:25

nora93 wrote:But they still persecuted religious Polish Jews who had no intention or desire to mix with "Aryans"or non Jews in general.
These Jews were actually worried about the growing intermarriage rate among their fellow tribesmen and feared assimilation.

Different situation for German Jews, who were IIRC the most intermarried Jewish community in the world. In fact there were even extremist integrationalist Jews in Germany who were pro-Hitler!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associati ... ional_Jews

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wm
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Re: Jewish "race"

Postby wm » 19 Oct 2017 21:07

nora93 wrote:They did this because they didn't possess DNA test or another 100% efficient way to detect Jewish "blood ".

Although there is no such a thing as a Jewish race, so it can't be detected even with DNA tests. Even the typical caricatural characteristics like curly black hair, crooked noses happened quite frequently among the East European peasants too so testing for the genes responsible for them would be pointless - resulting in many false positives and many false negatives.
The Nazis were actually aware of that (although they had only the "pre-DNA" phrenology at their disposal), and that was the reason they were replacing the mystical term "race" with the Volk.

nora93 wrote:Obviously to Nazis "Jewishness " was much more than following Judaism.

It was all defined by mystical terms, for example the blood was mystical too I suppose nobody really believed the physical bloods of various races were really different. But mystical terms were hard to use in practice, so following Judaism was all they got. Even today conservative/orthodox rabbis do the same.

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Re: Jewish "race"

Postby wm » 19 Oct 2017 21:22

nora93 wrote:But they still persecuted religious Polish Jews who had no intention or desire to mix with "Aryans"or non Jews in general.

They were seen as a huge reservoir supplying the modern "dangerous" Western Jews.
Neutralizing the Western Jews was pointless without neutralizing that reservoir. It was stated plainly in Mein Kampf and in The Myth of the 20th Century.


nora93 wrote:They forbade marriage between Jews and Germans for the sake of racial purity but they tolerated marriage between Germans and Japanese ...

The Japanese were a "lesser" or rather mediocre people, like the Russians they achieved their greatness thanks to help from Aryans/Nordics. Marring a mediocre person wasn't really dangerous to the Volk, especially it was obvious many Germans were quite mediocre too. But they planned to make such marriages progressively harder and harder with time.


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