Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

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history1
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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

Postby history1 » 10 Jan 2018 20:11

David Green wrote:[...]
At 3:53 in the Kitty - Return to Auschwitz documentary the camera shows Kitty's last school report, on it her name is given as Kitty Felixśwna.[...]

It says "Kitty Felixówna" born on Dec. 1st 1925 (!). While all wikipedia entries have "1926" as year of birth.
And she herself mentions in the 1st vid, recorded 1998, that she will be 72 in this year = 1926 as year of birth.

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

Postby Konrad Hagen » 10 Jan 2018 21:23

history1 wrote:Maybe you could state the source of the photo, Konrad, or is it yours? And how do you know that exactly this Block is the one where Zywulska did work? I must admit that I do not remember much from her book, did she mention the exact location of her Kanada Block?

Thank you for questioning me history1, I should have checked my sources before opening my big mouth. That block was in fact Kitty Hart's. As for the Sauna photograph, it has been lurking forgotten on my computer for a very long time and for the life of me I can't remember where I found it.

@16:43


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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

Postby Sergey Romanov » 10 Jan 2018 23:14

David Green wrote:
Sergey Romanov wrote:It would also be interesting to see each element *dated*, as far as possible, using the books' internal chronologies.

Zywulska was deported to Auschwitz in August 1944. Hart was deported in April 1943.


I think you hit the wrong key, Zywulska also entered Auschwitz in 1943.

Then Langbein is wrong.

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

Postby Sid Guttridge » 12 Jan 2018 18:02

Hi Guys,

I asked earlier about what conclusions should be drawn and the wider implications, but I received no reply. Would anyone care to have a stab at my questions this time?

I have never previously heard of her.

So what is the conclusion?

Was her experience real but she plagiarised a more literate peron's text to express what were presumably common experiences for tens of thousands of survivors?

Was she a fantasist who was never in Aushchwitz in the first place?

Are they the same person?

Are there wider implications for the credibility of the so-called "Holocaust"?


Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

Postby seaburn » 12 Jan 2018 19:50

Sid Guttridge wrote: Are there wider implications for the credibility of the so-called "Holocaust"?

Cheers,

Sid.



So called 'Holocaust' ? 8O

What exactly do you mean by that ?

I'm not commenting on this situation as I've not read all the posts yet but there are those who claimed they were in the twin towers when they were hit and were later called out. Does this mean there is doubt that the towers fell ? Of course not. The overwhelming evidence of the Holocaust can never be undermined. It's too monumental and uncovering a fraud here and there will never change that. The only people who doubt it are those who don't want to believe.

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

Postby wm » 12 Jan 2018 22:17

It's an inside joke, properly absurd like in: my dog used to chase people on a bike a lot. It got so bad, finally I had to take his bike away.


Was her experience real but she plagiarised a more literate peron's text to express what were presumably common experiences for tens of thousands of survivors?

Plagiarisation happens frequently, many sociopaths, devoid of conscience, everywhere.

Was she a fantasist who was never in Auschwitz in the first place?

She was there, a Jew from Bielsko had only two options: Auschwitz or death.

Are they the same person?

No.

Are there wider implications for the credibility of the so-called "Holocaust"?

No, she was nobody, her observations are of little value.

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

Postby Brumbar » 13 Jan 2018 04:59

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Guys,

I asked earlier about what conclusions should be drawn and the wider implications, but I received no reply. Would anyone care to have a stab at my questions this time?

I have never previously heard of her.

So what is the conclusion?

Was her experience real but she plagiarised a more literate peron's text to express what were presumably common experiences for tens of thousands of survivors?

Was she a fantasist who was never in Aushchwitz in the first place?

Are they the same person?

Are there wider implications for the credibility of the so-called "Holocaust"?


Cheers,

Sid.


Answers:

1) Familiarize yourself.

2) No conclusion as yet in this thread.

3) Quite possibly.

4) No, she was in Auschwitz and it's easily proven.

5) No, they are not the same person.

6) No, the book really doesn't contribute anything to understanding the "credibility" of the destruction of European Jewry during WWII. But it does seem to make good, basic fodder for the idiots that question that "credibility".

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

Postby Sergey Romanov » 13 Jan 2018 11:30

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Guys,

I asked earlier about what conclusions should be drawn and the wider implications, but I received no reply. Would anyone care to have a stab at my questions this time?

I have never previously heard of her.

So what is the conclusion?

Was her experience real but she plagiarised a more literate peron's text to express what were presumably common experiences for tens of thousands of survivors?

Was she a fantasist who was never in Aushchwitz in the first place?

Are they the same person?

Are there wider implications for the credibility of the so-called "Holocaust"?


Cheers,

Sid.

Why do you want final conclusions on a topic that is still being researched?

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

Postby David Green » 13 Jan 2018 18:47

A few more examples of the similarities in texts between the two works.


Zywulska:
Suddenly Zosha burst into the office.
'The third crematory is on fire!'
Just then we heard a shot. We ran out. The third crematory was in flames. SS men, with their rifles pointed, poured from all sides and sped towards the burning crematory. The attack began. We heard firing from the direction of the crematory as the fire grew more intense.
[...]
The flame was already reaching the roof. I gazed hypnotically at the chimneys. The symbolic meaning of this event was so great that it overshadowed everything else. It was no longer important that the other crematories were still standing. The battle itself became important. That flame was a sector of the front.
[...]
Reinforcement arrived, SS men on motorcycles and bicycles. Scarcely had they dismounted when firing was heard from the second crematory. They stopped and swiftly sped in the opposite direction. At that moment, one of the crematory chimneys crashed.
[...]
A fire-brigade composed of prisoners arrived from Oswiecim. Billows of smoke escaped from all sides of the building. The abominable structure crumbled like a house of cards. The second chimney began to sway. It fell with a crash. Then silence. We could still here single shots from the second crematory. The fire burned weakly. Then it flickered out. The SS men began to return from 'the battle fields'
(pp.218-219)


Hart:
Late one afternoon, as we were getting ready for our shift (there were still great quantities of everything imaginable to be sorted out), shots could be heard coming from the direction of the men's side. We ran out of our hut. What a sight met our eyes. Flames were coming out of crematory III. Within minutes the whole building was on fire. It spread rapidly. First the roof was gone, then flames began to come out of the gas chambers. Suddenly there was a huge bang as the first huge chimney toppled to The ground. Shots came from every side.
SS men ran all over the place. Reinforcements had been brought in, and they raced around on their motor cycles.
We stood as if hypnotized. What on earth was going on? Was this at last the uprising we had been waiting for?
[...]
Soon another explosion was heard coming from the direction of Crematorium II, and within minutes the chimneys collapsed and the building was in flames. Oh, what joy it was to see the destruction of those gas chambers and ovens!
[...]
It was not long before the fire brigade from one of the men's camp arrived. The flames gradually died down, but shooting could be heard coming from Crematoria II and III. The men from the Sonderkommando were defending their own lives.
[...]
Shortly afterwards the victorious SS could be seen marching back from their "battlefield".
(pp.114-115)



Zywulska:
The most widespread rumour was that they would drop a bomb at the camp. They would then announce that the Allies had bombed it. No one would bother to verify this insignificant fact.
(p.221)


Hart:
We waited anxiously for something to happen. There were rumours that the SS were waiting for the order to come from the Reichssicherheitsamt, the Berlin HQ, to dispose of us. There was talk that a bomb would be dropped, and that it would be explained as an Allied bomb.
(p.118)



Zywulska:
We entered the men's camp. We had to wait for the evening roll-call to be dismissed. We sensed that this was not a normal roll-call. The prisoners stood tensely. In the numb stillness emanating from the hostile throng, we noticed a gallows and four women hanging by the neck.
Four Jewish women from Poland had admitted that they had supplied the gunpowder to the special squad from the factories in which they worked. They had been hung during roll-call so that everyone could see and remember this act of justice.
(p.232)


Hart:
The ammunitions for the destruction of the crematoria had been supplied by four girls working in the Union Werke plant. Unfortunately, they were caught and hanged in full view of the entire camp.
(p.116)




Zywulska:
The day after the performance, the Germans took blood from the Jewish girls for transfusion. They were very polite. Ludka, a very resolute Jewish girl from Poland, refused to donate blood. 'Why should I? If they want it let them shoot me outright. They can take all the blood they want when they kill me.'
The German doctor was surprised at her attitude:
'You refuse to give blood for the Fatherland?'
'You never know how far they will go.' Ludka later said to me. 'I, the despised, down-trodden Jew, I who mean less to them than trash, I who come from an unclean race―I am to give my blood to the wounded Nordic soldier of the Herrenvolk!
And he was surprised that I refused!'
(pp.234-235)


Hart:
Inevitably there came a day when I was caught. Well, I thought, this is the end, but no, this time they were hunting only for specimens from whom blood could be taken for the wounded soldiers fighting for the "Fatherland". How queer that they thought our Jewish blood good enough to be mixed with theirs! Perhaps they came to the conclusion that we were after all, all made of the same stuff. It was fortunate indeed that, after taking blood from me, I was allowed to go. Needless to say, I ran as fast as my legs would carry me, before he could change his mind and have me for other purposes.
(p.98)
Last edited by David Green on 13 Jan 2018 19:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

Postby David Green » 13 Jan 2018 19:02

wm wrote:
David Green wrote:Zywulska was a committed Communist and her husband Leon Andrzejewski was apparently a senior member of the Communist Secret Police if online sources are to be believed. She had two sons one of whom was not Andrzejewski's.


Pre-war she was a naive communist sympathizer, after the war an opportunist communist party member.
Her second husband Leon was a pre-war Jewish communist, later a NKVDist, and in Poland an officer of the dreaded Ministry of Public Security.
They lived a lavish life in their own large house, with servants, and own car (in time when the rest at best owned bicycles). But she was a damn good writer and songwriter (with numerous hits) so maybe nothing wrong with that. I to this day regret reading her Empty Water, that book is simply too good for your own comfort.
Her young sons left Poland for greener pastures, and she followed them later because she was afraid the communists wouldn't allow her visit them in the West. They weren't really threatened by the anti-Zionist campaign and intra-party purges.

With Thomas Harlan, among the more natural "things", she was writing a book The Fourth Reich, a book intended to prove the post-war Germany benefited enormously from crimes committed by Nazi Germany, especially from slave labor.


What is your source for this information? What year did Zywulska marry Leon?

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

Postby David Green » 13 Jan 2018 19:12

Sergey Romanov wrote:It would also be interesting to see each element *dated*, as far as possible, using the books' internal chronologies.



An accurate timeline comparison would certainly be an aid in coming to a fair judgement on the question posed by the OP. Thank you for your positive contributions to this topic, Mr. Romanov.

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

Postby David Green » 13 Jan 2018 19:19

Brumbar wrote:
4) No, she was in Auschwitz and it's easily proven.


How is it easily proven?

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

Postby Yuli » 13 Jan 2018 21:53

David Green wrote:
Sergey Romanov wrote:
It would also be interesting to see each element *dated*, as far as possible, using the books' internal chronologies.

Zywulska was deported to Auschwitz in August 1944. Hart was deported in April 1943.

I think you hit the wrong key, Zywulska also entered Auschwitz in 1943.


Assuming the reported prisoner numbers are correct, then, according to Danuta Czech, Auschwitz Chronicle, Owl Books 1997, Page 366 and page 469.

Kitty Hart-Moxon, prisoner no. 39934, arrived at Auschwitz on April 2, 1943, in a RSHA transport of 127 women (numbers 39853-39963).

Krystyna Zywulska, prisoner no. 55908, arrived at Auschwitz on August 23, 1943, in a transport of 141 women from Pawiak (numbers 55778-55918).

Neither women appear in the prisoners list of AB museum archive.

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

Postby Yuli » 13 Jan 2018 21:59

Sorry, correction:
Krystyna Zywulska (55908) appears in the list of AB Museum archive under the name Landau (w obozie Żywulska ), Sonia (Krystyna)
The date of arrival noted there is August 25 1943.

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

Postby Sergey Romanov » 13 Jan 2018 22:19

David Green wrote:
Brumbar wrote:
4) No, she was in Auschwitz and it's easily proven.


How is it easily proven?

For one, both she and her mother survived and had the tattoos.


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