If the SS was the secret police of Hitler's regime and had a part in the Holocaust, did the general armed forces know?

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history1
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Re: If the SS was the secret police of Hitler's regime and had a part in the Holocaust, did the general armed forces kno

Post by history1 » 13 Aug 2020 22:58

Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Aug 2020 14:08
Hi wm,
[...]
The notion of the "Holocaust" as we understand it today, is essentially a post-war label attached to the mass killing of Jews by the Nazis. Mass killing of Jews by the Nazis began well before the date you give. How would you describe what the Einsatzgruppen were doing, if not mass murdering Jews?
[...]
So you claim Jews were only murdered in the Holocaust by Nazis?
How would one call Jewish victims murdered by the Soviets, Trawniki, by the Ustasha and Chetniks. By the Slovakian Hlinka guard or the Hungarian Arrow Cross Party, by Polish partisans or Lithuanian civilians or by ocal Ukrainian police& militia? Killed by Nazis?
When you understand as Holocaust victims only Jews murdered by Nazis then there´s something wrong with your understanding.

history1
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Re: If the SS was the secret police of Hitler's regime and had a part in the Holocaust, did the general armed forces kno

Post by history1 » 13 Aug 2020 22:59

wm wrote:
13 Aug 2020 14:10
Mori wrote:
13 Aug 2020 14:04
The Soviet killing of PoW is an extremely severe crime,
They weren't POWs, they were political prisoners.
Half of them weren't even arrested, they were rounded up and executed.
Maybe you should read a few books before commenting first.
Well spoken, wm!

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Terry Duncan
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Re: If the SS was the secret police of Hitler's regime and had a part in the Holocaust, did the general armed forces kno

Post by Terry Duncan » 13 Aug 2020 23:06

An off topic post from history1 was removed by this moderator.

If you wish to discuss state boundaries and official recognition of an occupied state, what this means for people born in occupied areas etc, please create a thread in the appropriate forum.

Terry

history1
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Re: If the SS was the secret police of Hitler's regime and had a part in the Holocaust, did the general armed forces kno

Post by history1 » 13 Aug 2020 23:16

wm wrote:
13 Aug 2020 14:23
[...]
Pre the end of 1941 the Nazis mass killed Jews, Russians, Poles for security reasons - as a result of the Commissar Order, but otherwise were ok with getting rid of Jews through Jewish emigration to Palestine, the US, colonies or to Asia.
It was called the final solution to the Jewish question.

Later the Jews were killed because they were Jews plain and simple.
Pre the end of 1941 the Jews had a chance of survival, later they didn't.
That the final solution to the Jewish question through genocide. That was the Holocaust.
Not only because they were Jews but because the Nazis realised that they had no possibility to expell all of them as they had nowhere to go.
Keep in mind the Evian Conference, the St. Louis which got turned way from US shores by the US-governement and sent back to Europe. Or the imhuman treatment of Jewish REFUGEES who tried to save their lives, requesting from them enough money to care for themself in the USA or an affidavit. While knowing about their persecution and distress! BTW, on board of the St. Louis were Jews released from the concentration camp Dachau to be able to emigrate! The US-soldiers were, allegedly, very surprised about the KL Dachau when they liberated it. So surprised that they even didn´t remember that US-newspapers mentioned this concentration camp already in spring 1934!!!

history1
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Re: If the SS was the secret police of Hitler's regime and had a part in the Holocaust, did the general armed forces kno

Post by history1 » 13 Aug 2020 23:26

Terry Duncan wrote:
13 Aug 2020 23:06
An off topic post from history1 was removed by this moderator.

If you wish to discuss state boundaries and official recognition of an occupied state, what this means for people born in occupied areas etc, please create a thread in the appropriate forum.

Terry
It wasn´t me who did referr to that content but Ivan. I hope you did also delete his post then!
And I´m not discussing the boundaries of a state which didn´t exist.
Staatsnamen

Die amtlichen Bezeichnungen seit der Gründung vom 29. Oktober 1918 bis zur Auflösung Jugoslawiens am 4. Februar 2003 lauteten:

Država Slovenaca, Hrvata i Srba kurz: Država SHS (Staat der Slowenen, Kroaten und Serben) – ausgerufen in Zagreb am 29. Oktober 1918
Kraljevstvo Srba Hrvata i Slovenaca (Königreich der Serben, Kroaten und Slowenen) – ausgerufen von König Petar Karađorđević am 1. Dezember 1918
Kraljevina Srba Hrvata i Slovenaca (Königreich der Serben, Kroaten und Slowenen) – erste Umbenennung aufgrund der Vidovdan-Verfassung vom 28. Juni 1921
Kraljevina Jugoslavija (Königreich Jugoslawien) – nach Putsch vom 6. Januar 1929 bis 17. April 1941
Demokratska Federativna Jugoslavija (Demokratisches Föderatives Jugoslawien) – 29. November 1943 bis Ende 1945
Federativna Narodna Republika Jugoslavija (Föderative Volksrepublik Jugoslawien) – 31. Januar 1946 (neue Verfassung) bis 1963
Socijalistička Federativna Republika Jugoslavija (Sozialistische Föderative Republik Jugoslawien) – 1963 bis 1992
Savezna Republika Jugoslavija (Bundesrepublik Jugoslawien) – 27. April 1992 bis 4. Februar 2003 (häufig auch als Rest-Jugoslawien bezeichnet; als Neustaat bestand die BRJ aus den ehemaligen sozialistischen Teilrepubliken Serbien und Montenegro)
Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugoslawien
What´s next? Not allowing stating facts like Croatian Ustasha and Serbian Chetniks did murder Jews because someone doesn´t like it?

history1
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Re: If the SS was the secret police of Hitler's regime and had a part in the Holocaust, did the general armed forces kno

Post by history1 » 13 Aug 2020 23:43

wm wrote:
13 Aug 2020 16:10
[...]
And really what it has to do with anything?
The point is pre-December the Nazis didn't intend to kill them all, they would gladly expel the Jews abroad.
Post-December it was "kill them all."

Pre-December the killings were no different from the others were doing: the Soviets, Turks, Japanese, Serbs, Croats.
Post-December they were different.
Absolutely correct!

history1
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Re: If the SS was the secret police of Hitler's regime and had a part in the Holocaust, did the general armed forces kno

Post by history1 » 13 Aug 2020 23:54

Ivan Ž. wrote:
13 Aug 2020 16:25
[...] Why were the German soldiers volunteering to kill them, why were the soldiers in a good mood before, during and after the executions? Why were they sad because they couldn't kill everyone according to the order? Years of the brainwashing Nazi propaganda -[...]
.
Why did Yugoslavian civilians choose to be unlawful combatants? Why were they sad because they couldn't kill every lawful combatant ( =soldier) according communist propaganda? Oh wait, after WWII they did murder at least hundreds of POW in your mountains by throwing them into deep dens.
Not sure if the people responsible for that crimes got ever convicted?

history1
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Re: If the SS was the secret police of Hitler's regime and had a part in the Holocaust, did the general armed forces kno

Post by history1 » 14 Aug 2020 00:08

Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Aug 2020 18:25
Hi wm,
[...]
You write, "Similarily in Germany German Jews worked, enjoyed not that bad food, were surrounded by quite friendly Germans." Hmmm, so no boycotts of their businesses? No Kristalnacht and its associated murders? No banning from the professions and public service? No expropriation of their businesses, art works and savings? No burnt synagogues? No yellow stars? And all of this was even before war broke out!
While the whole world did look on and did nothing about. Right the contrary. Especially the later liberators. Isn´t it interesting that eg. the USA did allow Jewish refugees to join their military within several months after their arrival but let them wait five, six and more years for their naturalisations. So in case they got KIA they didn´t die as Americans fighting for the country but as foreign mercenary.
Last edited by history1 on 14 Aug 2020 00:21, edited 1 time in total.

history1
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Re: If the SS was the secret police of Hitler's regime and had a part in the Holocaust, did the general armed forces kno

Post by history1 » 14 Aug 2020 00:19

Terry Duncan wrote:
13 Aug 2020 23:06
An off topic post from history1 was removed by this moderator.

If you wish to discuss state boundaries and official recognition of an occupied state, what this means for people born in occupied areas etc, please create a thread in the appropriate forum.

Terry
How does post nr. 29 fit in this thread?
Mori wrote:
13 Aug 2020 16:22
wm wrote:
13 Aug 2020 16:10
Massacres happened in Yougoslavia but at the same time in the Warsaw Ghetto Jews worked, danced in their cafés, were protected by their own police, lived in relative security. They were more secure in their Ghetto than the Poles outside.
Similarily in Germany German Jews worked, enjoyed not that bad food, were surrounded by quite friendly Germans.
It's not the first time you suggest that Jews enjoyed priviledged under the 3rd Reich.

In another thread, you explained that being deported to Riga was a way to be safe from Allied bombing and that non-Jewish Germans had reasons to be jalous of the Jews... I am waiting for your comments on how the women's orchestra of Auschwitz made it such a nicer place than working in a factory in the Ruhr.
How does a rant about wm´s post in a different thread fit in this thread with the matter
"If the SS was the secret police of Hitler's regime and had a part in the Holocaust, did the general armed forces know?"
As English is a foreign tongue to me I would like to get an explanations as I can´t really recognise a coherency.

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Re: If the SS was the secret police of Hitler's regime and had a part in the Holocaust, did the general armed forces kno

Post by David Thompson » 14 Aug 2020 00:42

Since this thread has drifted off-topic and the discussion is becoming intemperate, it's locked.

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