Hitler's Germany 3 to 4 times more deadly against the Soviets than against the Poles.

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RedRight
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Re: Hitler's Germany 3 to 4 times more deadly against the Soviets than against the Poles.

Post by RedRight » 29 Apr 2021 21:50

The Soviet Union was not an ally of the German Reich. The Soviets were trading not sending aid. The Western powers and Poland made non-aggression pacts with the Germans previously. The West is responsible for the Munich Pact.The USSR wanted to defend itself against an attack that would happen on terms favourable to the French and British and unfavourable to the Soviet Union. After Germany defeated Poland the USSR had to acquire space to defend itself, therefore they sent their troops to the former Eastern Poland.

The Americans wanted Poland to be a natural resources base for the Western economies and not a highly industrialized country. USSR extended $450 million grant for Poland. The same value was given by the Americans to Austria.

The Red Army was not occupying Poland. Based on an agreement with legitimate Polish government the USSR was protecting Poland and especially its western border while the USA imperialists were officially aiding the West German reactionaries in their territorial claims against Poland.

Rob Stuart
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Re: Hitler's Germany 3 to 4 times more deadly against the Soviets than against the Poles.

Post by Rob Stuart » 30 Apr 2021 11:50

RedRight wrote:
26 Mar 2021 12:25
The Germans killed roughly 18% of 66 millions non-Jewish Soviet civilians in the occupied USSR. On the other hand they eliminated 9% of ethnic Poles. This happened during an occupation almost twice as long.
This refutes the myth that Poland was the main victim of Hitler.
RedRight, a month ago I asked why you didn't include the deaths of Polish and Soviet Jewish people in your numbers, and David Thompson asked you to identify your sources. Could you please now answer both questions/

RedRight
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Re: Hitler's Germany 3 to 4 times more deadly against the Soviets than against the Poles.

Post by RedRight » 01 May 2021 13:58

The Jews were a separate nation and the Germans treated them as such. The situation of Jews may be considered separately, for example in France and in Poland. But I was more interested in the position of the "native" nations. Since the Jews were a much larger percentage of Poland's than Soviet population and they were exterminated on a similar scale the result is a bias when they are included.

The overall demographic number is given by the Russian Academy of Sciences.
The number of Germans killed by Soviet partisans is somewhere on this forum, the same for the number of cities and villages destroyed.

Rob Stuart
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Re: Hitler's Germany 3 to 4 times more deadly against the Soviets than against the Poles.

Post by Rob Stuart » 03 May 2021 13:09

RedRight wrote:
01 May 2021 13:58
The Jews were a separate nation and the Germans treated them as such. The situation of Jews may be considered separately, for example in France and in Poland. But I was more interested in the position of the "native" nations. Since the Jews were a much larger percentage of Poland's than Soviet population and they were exterminated on a similar scale the result is a bias when they are included.

The overall demographic number is given by the Russian Academy of Sciences.
The number of Germans killed by Soviet partisans is somewhere on this forum, the same for the number of cities and villages destroyed.
Here is your original post:

The Germans killed roughly 18% of 66 millions non-Jewish Soviet civilians in the occupied USSR. On the other hand they eliminated 9% of ethnic Poles. This happened during an occupation almost twice as long.
This refutes the myth that Poland was the main victim of Hitler.


The Jews were not a separate nation. Apart from a few who were stateless, all of the Jews of Europe were citizens of their countries of birth or naturalized citizens of the countries in which they were immigrants.

In your original post you speak at first of "ethnic Poles" but then speak of "Poland" as if only ethnic Poles were citizens of Poland. If you want to discuss whether Poland or the USSR suffered the higher overall death rate, then you must include all citizens of both countries, and in the case of the USSR you must also include deaths in combat and deaths in unoccupied portions of the country, where they are attributable to the Germans. It may be true that the Germans killed 9% of ethnic Poles, but they killed 17% of all Poles, and that is the relevant number in any discussion of how many Poles died. Thus you have not refuted the so-called myth that Poland was the main victim of Hitler. By excluding Polish Jews from your numbers, who haven't even addressed it.

I believe that the figures I cited from the The Oxford Companion to World War II are correct, and they show that Poland lost 17% of its people while the USSR lost 15.8% or less of its pre-war population. It is therefore true, and not a myth, that Poland had proportionately more fatalities than the USSR. If, having first acknowledged this reality, you want to then compare the death rates between the non-Jewish populations of Poland and the occupied parts of the USSR, that's okay, but that's a separate discussion. In your first post you've mixed up these separate issues and thus come to an erroneous conclusion.

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