Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

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LineDoggie
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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

Post by LineDoggie » 10 Jun 2021 15:42

snpol wrote:
09 Jun 2021 18:46

The devil is in the details and the main detail here is apparent fact that the Soviet union was British ally, like you it or not.


By the Same standard the russians were nazi Allies from 1939-41

Until the German invasion the Russians helped the reich not only with resources but ordered communist groups in the UK and France to hinder their defense against the nazis by fomenting strikes and sabotage

Suddenly on June 22nd they told them to start fighting the occupiers
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

Post by wm » 10 Jun 2021 19:01

Interestingly, on the first day of the invasion, in the annexed Polish territories many Soviet soldiers were convinced they were attacked by Britain - because of the relentless anti-British propaganda in earlier months.

And Hitler said many times that Nazism was a German phenomenon, wasn't suitable for others, shouldn't have been exported.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

Post by snpol » 10 Jun 2021 19:04

Pods wrote:
10 Jun 2021 02:20
snpol wrote:
09 Jun 2021 18:46
Hitler planned to enslave and exterminate the whole peoples, not only to conquer respective territories.
Really the systematic extermination of Nazi Germany applied only to the Jews. There is no evidence of the extermination of "all peoples".
You have forgotten about the Gypsies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_genocide
The key word here is systematic. I didn't use it. Some ethnical groups, some peoples are regarded by Hitler as untermenschen (subhumans). They were doomed to enslavement and as a result to at least partial extermination not systematic but quite effective through deportations and mass starvation.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

Post by snpol » 10 Jun 2021 19:11

LineDoggie wrote:
10 Jun 2021 03:22
snpol wrote:
09 Jun 2021 18:46

Moscow is not accused in deliberate starvation, exposure and summary execution of German POWs. It is the key point.
Russian Whataboutism again

of course Moscows not accused who would make the complaint where it would be investigated? certainly not the UN, and at Nuremberg they successfully got Katyn blamed on the Germans even though they knew they were the murderers
The Nazis used deliberate starvation, exposure and summary execution toward Soviet POWs while Moscow didn't use such methods toward German POWs.
If you disagree then please refer to reliable source and we would be able to discuss the issue.
If you haven't such a source then your point of view, no doubt very valuable one, remains just your private opinion.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

Post by snpol » 10 Jun 2021 20:04

Hi Sid.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Jun 2021 11:29
You replied, "The Soviet union itself, the communist regime remained unchanged after 22 June 1941. But the environment dramatically changed, military and geopolitical landscape changed. Germany was not attacked from outside while the Soviet union was a victim of bald aggression. The status of victim of aggression was the main difference." Exactly. All the changes were externally induced, not internally generated. So why does this proposed legislation protect the USSR after June 1941, if it was fundamentally unchanged? If it was good or bad before 22 June 1941, it was good or bad afterwards surely?
The answer is obvious. The law refers to WW2 and the Soviet union entered the war 22 June 1941. For example the war with Finland (1939/40) was not a part of WW2 and is not covered by the law. The law forbids to equate (for example) Nazi invasion in Greece and Soviet invasion in Iran.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Jun 2021 11:29

You post, "Hitler came to power in 1933 and until that point Germany also (as France or the UK) was a democracy." Yup. Exactly my point. Before Hitler came to power, Germany was a liberal democracy, as were France and the UK. After Hitler and the Nazis came to power, Germany became a totalitarian dictatorship, like the USSR.
Not all totalitarian dictatorships have the same nature. Nazism and communism were political antagonists and first of all Hitler excluded Communist members of the parliament. Later Germany and the Soviet union supported different sides during the civil war in Spain. The Soviet union supported democratically elected Spanish government.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Jun 2021 11:29
You post, "Hitler was not internationalist even in theory. It is very important feature." Yes, but so was the USSR in practice. Make no mistake, I think the motivations for the creation of the USSR were infinitely more noble than those of Nazism, yet the results in practice were often similar.
Not so often and not so similar.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Jun 2021 11:29
You post, ".....the Soviet union was British ally, like you it or not." I like it, as the war was probably unwinnable for the UK without Soviet sacrifice (and US participation). However, the fact remains that this was a situation forced on the USSR by Germany, not some noble crusade of principle taken up by the USSR voluntarily.
On this point I agree. Indeed, Stalin looked how capitalist states weaken each other. France, the UK, Germany were capitalist states, had similar economic systems while economic system of the Soviet union was quite different. Btw, Washington didn't declare state of war with Germany but Hitler did it himself in December 1941. So Washington didn't hurry to begin 'the noble crusade' as well.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Jun 2021 11:29
You post, "Btw, some Ukrainians, Latvians (and others) were members of waffen SS units." Yup, as it was the only remaining route by which they could take up arms to defend their countries against Soviet occupation. They were nationalists, not Nazis or Communists.
However they took part in the Holocaust as murderers. About 60 thousand of Poles were massacred by Ukrainian nationalists.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Jun 2021 11:29
You post, "Baltic states gained their independence with help from foreign forces including the UK...." So? The issue is not who helped but whether they were entitled to national autonomy. They themselves thought "Yes", Imperial Russia and the USSR both though "No". I would suggest that if Russians are entitled to national autonomy, so are their neighbours.
Moscow that time regarded Baltic states as unlawful separatist entities. Independence is not an automatic right of any people. The people in Catalonia demand the independence but Madrid says NO. Leaders of Scottish nationalists demand the second referendum but London says NO. Independence should be won by the people. If independence is a result of actions of external forces (as in Kosovo) then such an independence costs half penny. Latvian and Estonian nationalists were helped by external forces including the UK. So their independence were imposed from outside. Would Madrid agree with independence of Catalonia imposed from outside? No of course.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Jun 2021 11:29

You post, "There was also British imperialism and it was founded also on "real politics" or not?" Yes, but does this make it right? The UK is half a century into post-Imperialism. It appears that Putin's Russia hasn't yet entered its own post-Imperialist phase.
Indeed after the fall of British colonial empire in 60's the UK became just a big European state with only a few colonies as Gibraltar, Sovereign military bases in Cyprus, the Falklands, some islands around the World including Diego Garcia. At the same time the USA became an Empire, World policeman, the only superpower and tried to be the only decision making center in the World. The UK just plays role of the Poodle or Tabaqui who serves Shere Khan. In comparison with American imperialism, Putin's Russia is merely regional power as it was called in Washington.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Jun 2021 11:29

You post, "Moscow is not accused in deliberate starvation, exposure and summary execution of German POWs. It is the key point." Actually, it is. I consider that both Nazi Germany used "malign neglect" to cause the mass deaths of the other's POWs, particularly early in the campaign. Both claimed they lack the resources to feed, clothe and house them, yet to do so was their responsibility. It is an area where Nazi Germany and the USSR seem to have initially been similarly callous and inhumane. I put this down to their shared Totalitarianism.
I hold in high esteem your learned opinion but from my point of view it should be backed by facts and reliable sources.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

Post by gebhk » 10 Jun 2021 21:31

the Soviet union entered the war 22 June 1941.
Errm, no, it entered the war on 17 September 1939 when it invaded Poland. On 22nd June it was attacked by its erstwhile ally in that war.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

Post by Futurist » 11 Jun 2021 02:37

Sid Guttridge wrote:
08 May 2021 03:39
But they can still equate Putin and his occupation of Crimea and the Donetsk region to Hitler and the Germans in Danzig and the Polish Corridor?

Sid
Yes--though Hitler didn't actually stop there, unlike Putin. Hitler went for the lion's share of Poland as well. This would be comparable to Putin also going after at least all of Novorossiya and Kiev.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

Post by Futurist » 11 Jun 2021 02:43

Sid Guttridge wrote:
09 May 2021 14:31
Hi wwilson,

You ask, "Ah. But how 'right' is it for other countries to 'explore' the history of a country they are politically targeting with the objective of instigating unrest in that country?" Entirely right. If a country doesn't want to be suddenly embarrassed by its past, it should address its own history honestly, thereby removing it as a stick with which it could be beaten. Then it can't be successfully ambushed by its own past.

Who is doing this, as a matter of interest? This seems to be entirely an internal Russian thing.

You post, "1- Putin is not an ordinary Russian. He is the leader of the Russian Federation and is empowered (whether outsiders like the Russian system of government is immaterial) to make decisions to protect the Russian Federation." Yup. So? The fact that Putin can do something does mean (1) that he should do so or (2) that it is in the interests of Russia or Russians.

You post, "I do not believe any push in Russia to equate the actions of the Soviet Union with Nazi Germany was a home-grown political phenomenon." Your evidence for this is.....?

You post, "It sounds like an attempt to reduce the negotiating power of the Russian state by advancing the notion that morally, the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were equally bankrupt, and therefore, Russia has no recourse to rebuttal based in morality." I wouldn't, personally put the USSR in quite the same category as Nazi Germany. However, beyond good theoretical intentions, in practice it certainly didn't occupy very much of the moral high ground during its existence, so it would be difficult to mount any "rebuttal based on morality" . What bits of the moral high ground do you suggest the USSR occupied that might be leveraged to its advantage in the future?

You post, "Now consider how Putin would view such a situation. As a national leader, he would never agree to such a proposition. So, he shuts discussion of it down. Not much to like there?" I don't have to consider Putin's view if it diverges from openness on the facts and the right to publicly debate them. It would appear to be his intention to treat the Russian people like mushrooms - kept in the dark and fed on sh1t! If this didn't impact on Russia's neighbours, it would just be a private Russian grief, but it does and is very threatening to them. Putin's forces currently stand on the territory of four of the Christian, former SSRs of the Soviet Union, in three cases without being invited.

You post, "Other states, faced with similar attempts at defamation of the entire country, may be able to rely upon robust legal systems to remedy such attempts at manipulation by other countries." Which "other states"? What "manipulation"? What "defamation"?

How can open discussion of the facts defame anybody, let alone an entire country if that fame is justified? If it is demonstrable that the USSR is not equatable to the Nazi Germany, then it should be a simple matter to demonstrate this. My suspicion is that there are too many parallels with Nazi Germany for this to be a safe and easy route to follow and so the preferred option is to shut down debate altogether.

I should point out that the USSR was not the same country as today's Russia. Nor was Czarist Russia. If the current Russian Federation wants to reclaim Russia's heritage as its own, it might like to start by paying off Czarist Russia's international debts. That would empirically demonstrate its reclamation of Russia's past and continuity with it.

"Well, I also consider the state of the law in Russia. It is applied with considerably more arbitrariness there than in many countries of the West. That is the consequence of heavy-handed state control for a much longer time than Putin has even been alive. Yet, it is what Putin has to work with, and so instead, he issues decrees." Putin is an autocratic head of government with near dictatorial powers. He has been in power for over twenty years already and has altered the constitution to keep himself there for perhaps decades to come. A majority of Russia's practicing legal profession today probably began work after Putin came to power and some would be half way through their careers by now.

How long can Putin go on blaming the past for inadequacies in his own regime?

After over two decades of his rule, Russia's population is again falling, despite the return of millions of Russians from the "near abroad". Russians seem very patriotic, yet a high proportion of educated young Russians want to leave. When they do leave they apparently repatriate less money to Russia than Georgian expatriates send back to tiny Georgia!

Russia has more natural resources than any other country, yet exports almost no manufactured products beyond armaments. Its people are often highly educated and skilled, yet have a life expectancy slightly below those of Mexico, Morocco or Malaysia.

This law is the least of Russia's internally generated problems.

Cheers,

Sid.
Russia's life expectancy significantly rose in recent years:

https://www.unz.com/akarlin/russian-dem ... s-in-2019/

As for the structure of the Russian economy, it's apparently similar to that of Australia:

https://www.unz.com/akarlin/made-in-russia/

True, Australia is significantly richer than Russia, but Australia also didn't endure decades of Communist rule like Russia did. Anyway, my point here is not that Russia is as wealthy as Australia (because it isn't), but rather that Russia's (and Australia's) specific type of economic structure doesn't necessarily have to hurt it in the long(er)-run any more than it hurt Australia.

Anatoly Karlin's blog is a great place to read about developments in Russia. He's a Russian nationalist, but a lot of what he writes (about Russian demographics, Russian cities, et cetera) is undoubtedly more accurate than what is presented in the biased and often Russophobic mainstream media. I'm not a huge fan of Russotriumphalism, but I'm also not a huge fan of Russopessimism either.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

Post by Futurist » 11 Jun 2021 02:46

snpol wrote:
10 Jun 2021 20:04
Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Jun 2021 11:29
You post, "Baltic states gained their independence with help from foreign forces including the UK...." So? The issue is not who helped but whether they were entitled to national autonomy. They themselves thought "Yes", Imperial Russia and the USSR both though "No". I would suggest that if Russians are entitled to national autonomy, so are their neighbours.
Moscow that time regarded Baltic states as unlawful separatist entities. Independence is not an automatic right of any people. The people in Catalonia demand the independence but Madrid says NO. Leaders of Scottish nationalists demand the second referendum but London says NO. Independence should be won by the people. If independence is a result of actions of external forces (as in Kosovo) then such an independence costs half penny. Latvian and Estonian nationalists were helped by external forces including the UK. So their independence were imposed from outside. Would Madrid agree with independence of Catalonia imposed from outside? No of course.
FWIW, I wish that international realities actually were more tolerant in regards to national self-determination. But Yeah, over the last 100+ years, there has been significant tension between the concept of national territorial integrity and the conception of national self-determination. Plenty of people did acquire their independence over the last 100+ years, but plenty of other people failed to do so.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

Post by Futurist » 11 Jun 2021 02:47

wm wrote:
10 Jun 2021 19:01
And Hitler said many times that Nazism was a German phenomenon, wasn't suitable for others, shouldn't have been exported.
It was more of a desire of wanting the Russians' land than of wanting to export Nazism to the Russians.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

Post by snpol » 11 Jun 2021 10:44

gebhk wrote:
10 Jun 2021 21:31
the Soviet union entered the war 22 June 1941.
Errm, no, it entered the war on 17 September 1939 when it invaded Poland. On 22nd June it was attacked by its erstwhile ally in that war.
17 September Moscow looking at in fact collapsed Polish state, taking into account that Eastern part of Polant (up to the Curzon line) was populated mainly by Ukrainians and Belorussians, decided to defends lives and property of local population that could be under imminent threat if Hitler would occupy the whole Poland. Btw, no less than hundreds thousands Jews were saved from the Holocaust disaster thanks to move made by Moscow.
Remarkably, France and the UK didn't declare the state of war with the Soviet union because Paris and London understood the real causes and they prefer to see the Eastern part of Poland under Stalin's control than under Hitler's one.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

Post by snpol » 11 Jun 2021 11:34

Futurist wrote:
11 Jun 2021 02:46
snpol wrote:
10 Jun 2021 20:04
Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Jun 2021 11:29
You post, "Baltic states gained their independence with help from foreign forces including the UK...." So? The issue is not who helped but whether they were entitled to national autonomy. They themselves thought "Yes", Imperial Russia and the USSR both though "No". I would suggest that if Russians are entitled to national autonomy, so are their neighbours.
Moscow that time regarded Baltic states as unlawful separatist entities. Independence is not an automatic right of any people. The people in Catalonia demand the independence but Madrid says NO. Leaders of Scottish nationalists demand the second referendum but London says NO. Independence should be won by the people. If independence is a result of actions of external forces (as in Kosovo) then such an independence costs half penny. Latvian and Estonian nationalists were helped by external forces including the UK. So their independence were imposed from outside. Would Madrid agree with independence of Catalonia imposed from outside? No of course.
FWIW, I wish that international realities actually were more tolerant in regards to national self-determination. But Yeah, over the last 100+ years, there has been significant tension between the concept of national territorial integrity and the conception of national self-determination. Plenty of people did acquire their independence over the last 100+ years, but plenty of other people failed to do so.
Alas we live in the cruel and imperfect World where principle 'might is right' has upper hand. Recently pres.Biden supported the idea of 'rules based World order' but remarkably the list of the rules has not been sounded. Recalling position of Washington toward Golan heights, Kosovo and Crimea, the task to formulate the rules looks as impossible (at least for Washington).
London in fact annexed a part of Cyprus (EU member) and Turkey (NATO member) occupied its northern part and what the West is doing in this context? In fact nothing. London control territories far away from Great Britain as Gibraltar while Spain is a member of NATO.
There is a lot of territorial disputes in our (i repeat it) cruel and imperfect World while we live in the 21st century. Geopolitical landscape in the 1st half of 20th century was even more cruel and imperfect. It should be taken into account when one tries to analyse political and military actions happened that time.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

Post by Futurist » 11 Jun 2021 18:50

snpol wrote:
11 Jun 2021 10:44
gebhk wrote:
10 Jun 2021 21:31
the Soviet union entered the war 22 June 1941.
Errm, no, it entered the war on 17 September 1939 when it invaded Poland. On 22nd June it was attacked by its erstwhile ally in that war.
17 September Moscow looking at in fact collapsed Polish state, taking into account that Eastern part of Polant (up to the Curzon line) was populated mainly by Ukrainians and Belorussians, decided to defends lives and property of local population that could be under imminent threat if Hitler would occupy the whole Poland. Btw, no less than hundreds thousands Jews were saved from the Holocaust disaster thanks to move made by Moscow.
Remarkably, France and the UK didn't declare the state of war with the Soviet union because Paris and London understood the real causes and they prefer to see the Eastern part of Poland under Stalin's control than under Hitler's one.
Interestingly enough, all of the Kresy's Jews could have been spared from the Holocaust had Stalin decided to deport all of them en masse to the interior of the Soviet Union between September 1939 and June 1941--though some of them would have likely perished as a result of these deportations.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

Post by wm » 11 Jun 2021 23:02

Futurist wrote:
11 Jun 2021 02:47
wm wrote:
10 Jun 2021 19:01
And Hitler said many times that Nazism was a German phenomenon, wasn't suitable for others, shouldn't have been exported.
It was more of a desire of wanting the Russians' land than of wanting to export Nazism to the Russians.
In this case, he meant his allies and collaborators: Italy, Japan, France, Norway not Russia.

Futurist wrote:
11 Jun 2021 02:46
FWIW, I wish that international realities actually were more tolerant in regards to national self-determination. But Yeah, over the last 100+ years, there has been significant tension between the concept of national territorial integrity and the conception of national self-determination. Plenty of people did acquire their independence over the last 100+ years, but plenty of other people failed to do so.
That's one of the liberal fantasies (i.e., giving false hope to minorities and enabling their irredentism) that will lead to endless violence, civil wars, and genocide.
No multinational country is going to support it (especially Russia, China, India, Pakistan). And in the case of Africa, it will result in devastation not seen before.
The countries simply can't afford to be cut up to pieces - especially for economic reasons.

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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

Post by Futurist » 12 Jun 2021 01:37

wm wrote:
11 Jun 2021 23:02
Futurist wrote:
11 Jun 2021 02:46
FWIW, I wish that international realities actually were more tolerant in regards to national self-determination. But Yeah, over the last 100+ years, there has been significant tension between the concept of national territorial integrity and the conception of national self-determination. Plenty of people did acquire their independence over the last 100+ years, but plenty of other people failed to do so.
That's one of the liberal fantasies (i.e., giving false hope to minorities and enabling their irredentism) that will lead to endless violence, civil wars, and genocide.
No multinational country is going to support it (especially Russia, China, India, Pakistan). And in the case of Africa, it will result in devastation not seen before.
The countries simply can't afford to be cut up to pieces - especially for economic reasons.
There is another option: Preserving national territorial integrity but also create ethnic federations.

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