Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

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wm
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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by wm » 21 Aug 2021 21:46

The book warns against taking his stories at their face value (I made flaming patriots out of a battalion of soldiers in 1919) and cautions that it's not a stenographic record but rather (edited) notes.
But defends the veracity of them too (Hitler using the Churchillian "iron curtain" expression).

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by wm » 21 Aug 2021 21:55

Hitler claimed that not all Slavs were Slavs and as evidence (among others) brought the Czech mustache, but as emotions weren't recorded we don't know if he was joking or not. Although there was an exclamation mark at the end.
Maybe he had read about it in some book, that the Czechs had something in common with the Mongols. The same "places of origin" were proposed for both the Slavs and Mongols after all.

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by henryk » 23 Aug 2021 19:36

wm wrote:
21 Aug 2021 21:55

Maybe he had read about it in some book, that the Czechs had something in common with the Mongols. The same "places of origin" were proposed for both the Slavs and Mongols after all.
What place is that, and claimed by whom?

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by wm » 23 Aug 2021 21:26

I suppose it would be easier to list the places that weren't claimed to be the origin of the Slavs or the Mongols.
The Mongols were sometimes equated with the Scythians, and Scythia overlaps with Sarmatia the beloved birthplace of all Polish nobles.

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henryk
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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by henryk » 24 Aug 2021 20:14

wm wrote:
23 Aug 2021 21:26
I suppose it would be easier to list the places that weren't claimed to be the origin of the Slavs or the Mongols.
The Mongols were sometimes equated with the Scythians, and Scythia overlaps with Sarmatia the beloved birthplace of all Polish nobles.
Mongols are from Northeast Asia and are not Indo-European.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongols

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples
The Iranian peoples[1] or the Iranic peoples,[2][3] are a diverse Indo-European ethno-linguistic group[1][4] identified by their use of the Iranian languages and other cultural similarities.
The ancient Iranian peoples who emerged after the 1st millennium BC include the Alans, Bactrians, Dahae, Khwarazmians, Massagetae, Medes, Parthians, Persians, Sagartians, Sakas, Sarmatians, Scythians, Sogdians, and probably Cimmerians, among other Iranian-speaking peoples of Western Asia, Central Asia, Eastern Europe, and the Eastern Steppe.
"beloved birthplace of all Polish nobles". A myth
https://www.jstor.org/stable/25776522
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wm
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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by wm » 24 Aug 2021 20:59

Although it's not about truth but rather about various theories at the beginning of the 20th century.

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by Szwilpo » 13 Sep 2021 03:14

George L Gregory wrote:
01 May 2021 22:50
The Generalplan Ost envisioned the enslavement and extermination of Baltic people and Slavic people.

https://archive.is/20120527021449/http: ... _Plans.htm

George, the whole work is available:

Poland Under Nazi Occupation

https://archive.org/details/PolandUnderNaziOccupation

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by michael mills » 13 Sep 2021 06:01

The document linked by George L Gregory is very interesting. One of the items in it is this statement by Hitler:
"Under no circumstances should the Government General become a self-contained and uniform economic area producing all or some of the industrial articles needed by it; it must be a reservoir of manpower for us to perform the most menial jobs (brickmaking, road construction, etc.)."

"It is therefore completely in order for a large surplus of manpower to exist in the Government General so that every year there would be a supply of labour for the Reich. We must be ruthlessly on our guard to prevent the emergence of any 'Polish masters;' wherever they are found, they must, however harsh this may sound, be eliminated."
That statement shows unequivocally that Hitler had no intention of physically exterminating the Polish people. Rather the contrary; he wanted there to be a large Polish population that could provide what he calls a "large surplus of manpower", to act as a "supply of labour for the Reich". At most he envisaged the elimination of "Polish masters", persons who could become leaders of resistance to German rule.

Another interesting item is plan for the primary education of Polish children, in the 1939 memorandum by Wetzel and Hecht:
"Only general primary schools are permitted and they will teach only the most rudimentary subjects such as reading, writing and arithmetic. The teaching of such subjects as geography, history and history of literature, which are important from a national point of view, as well as physical training is forbidden. However, the schools should give training in agriculture, forestry and simple industrial trades and handicrafts."
These ideas are not all that different from views expressed by some conservative commentators in our own time, who bemoan what they see as neglect of the traditional "three Rs", precisely the "rudimentary" subjects mentioned by Wetzel and Hecht (except that those commentators would call them "core subjects), in favour of "useless" subjects such as literature. Those commentators are also often very much in favour of giving more emphasis in education to "practical" subjects such as industrial trades, ie the subjects suggested by Wetzel and Hecht, with less emphasis of purely academic subjects geared to university entrance. Seen in that light, the proposals by Wetzel and Hecht do not appear absolutely outrageous.

Finally, the memorandum by Wetzel and Hecht says something very interesting and also unexpected about the proposed treatment of the Jewish population of occupied Poland.
""One way is provided by the plan to keep both Poles and Jews alike at the same low level of living and deprive them of all political, national and cultural rights. In this case the Poles and Jews would be left in the same position.

"As for the second way, here the opportunities for the Poles to develop nationally and culturally would be no less restricted than under the first plan. The Jews, however, would be given slightly more freedom, particularly in the cultural and economic field, so that some decisions on administrative and economic matters would be taken in consultation with them. As far as domestic policy is concerned this solution would lead to still greater economic encroachment by the Jews, but it would still leave the Jews grounds for serious complaints and with constant difficulties."
What is so surprising about this recommendation is that it proposes giving the Jews a status superior to that of the Poles, and even sees them as playing a role in the management of the Polish population, almost as consultants or assistants to the German rulers. It is astounding that Wetzel and Hecht could have conceived such an idea, given the demonisation of the Jews in National Socialist ideology; at the very least, this recommendation shows that as of the end of 1939 there was a yet no plan for the physical extermination of the Jews in very senior levels of the National Socialist bureaucracy.

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by wm » 15 Sep 2021 00:46

I suppose that mostly illustrates the degree of freedom various Nazi departments, institutions, organizations enjoyed.
The Jewish supervision wasn't anything Hitler/Himmler would have ever allowed but Wetzel and Hecht were able to draw their plans without fearing retribution for independent thinking.
In comparison in the USSR, they most likely would be purged and executed for that.

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Re: Did the Nazis intend to exterminate the Slavs?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Sep 2021 06:31

Hi Michael Mills,

You post, "That statement shows unequivocally that Hitler had no intention of physically exterminating the Polish people. Rather the contrary; he wanted there to be a large Polish population that could provide what he calls a "large surplus of manpower", to act as a "supply of labour for the Reich". At most he envisaged the elimination of "Polish masters", persons who could become leaders of resistance to German rule."

Or, it could just be a purely stop-gap wartime expedient to wipe out Polish leadership groups and exploit residual Polish labour for the duration, while German manpower was mobilized in the armed forces.

You post, "These ideas are not all that different from views expressed by some conservative commentators in our own time, who bemoan what they see as neglect of the traditional "three Rs"....." This is a laughable analogy, because it ignores that Poles were to be deprived of secondary, let alone university, education to prevent the perpetuation of a Polish leadership caste. German policy was to reduce the Poles to the basic Three "R's", not promote reading, writing and arithmetic for their collective benefit.

It seems that Nazi racial policies were always "work in progress" and dependent largely on the opportunities their military conquests opened up. Given the ridiculous fuss they made about the Polish Corridor in 1938-39, which resulted in war, it is highly unlikely that they would have been willing to sustain indefinitely an identifiable Polish entity separating the Alt Reich and the lands designated for lebensraum in the Ukraine.

Cheers,

Sid.

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