Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

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Dili
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by Dili » 22 Nov 2021 08:32

Well i will be opening a new topic about Arab-Muslim massacre here. And another about expelling of Jews from Arab and Muslim countries.

And then we will see what the moderators do.
The fact that you dishonestly link anything that happen in ME to WW2. You are doing politics here.

Lets remember the massacre of Damour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damour_massacre

Dili
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by Dili » 22 Nov 2021 08:38

And then i'll make a topic about how massacres are cultural and historical in region. I'll start with massacres against Zoroastrians.

Assyrians, Curds, Druzes, Zoroastrians, Bahi''a who btw can only have temples in Israel, they can't have temples in any other ME country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal ... of_Justice because intolerance is endemic in Middle East.

snpol
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by snpol » 22 Nov 2021 10:34

Dili wrote:
22 Nov 2021 08:32
Well i will be opening a new topic about Arab-Muslim massacre here. And another about expelling of Jews from Arab and Muslim countries.

And then we will see what the moderators do.
The fact that you dishonestly link anything that happen in ME to WW2. You are doing politics here.

Lets remember the massacre of Damour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damour_massacre
I dare to disagree. The name of this section is 'Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes'. So all war crimes happened in 20th century should be discussed without any exemptions. My own remarks don't contain any political considerations.
As for Damour massacre conducted by Palestinians in captured town in Lebanon (predominantly Christian one) then it is a proper theme. There are allegations that the Maronites staged massacre in Sabra and Shatila refugees camps in Beirut as a revenge. That time the camps were encircled by Israeli troops and allegedly the Israelis intentionally opened way to the falangists to massacre in fact defenceless Palestinians.
Please open thread about extradition of the Jews from Arab countries, especially if it was a war crime.

snpol
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by snpol » 22 Nov 2021 10:37

Dili wrote:
22 Nov 2021 08:38
And then i'll make a topic about how massacres are cultural and historical in region. I'll start with massacres against Zoroastrians.

Assyrians, Curds, Druzes, Zoroastrians, Bahi''a who btw can only have temples in Israel, they can't have temples in any other ME country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal ... of_Justice because intolerance is endemic in Middle East.
I agree that it's an interesting theme.

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 22 Nov 2021 13:55

snpol wrote:
22 Nov 2021 05:09
Dili wrote:
22 Nov 2021 03:52
What a hell is this topic doing here?
I believe that Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict is an important issue worth to be investigated to find their direct and indirect links to the Holocaust. I invite you to express your opinion in this context or/and contribute to the thread with factual information.
As any other topic this one could cause discussion that involves wide range of themes including abstract questions about migration processes, examples of migration during human history and current events related to migration.
I would like to note that as it is historical apolitical forum then political discussion is not acceptable. I believe that currents events should not be discussed as well.
Theoretical questions sometimes might sound interesting but without real examples they are mainly pointless.
Ok. Then you are right. The WWII "holocaust", circa 1939-45, gives the alibi for never ending Israeli "war crimes" till date (2021). Should we include the acts of gratuitous terrorism and massacres of the innocent in Mandated Palestine too? The King David Hotel bombing for instance? Directly supervised by Menachem Begin, who subsequently became a Prime Minister in Israel.. (Parallels maybe drawn with terrorists becoming respectable portfolio holders in the present Taliban govt).

This study- https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/j ... 0538/11136 by David Charters argues that Zionist terrorism in Mandated Palestine, laid the foundations for the subsequent 6 decades long Palestinian / Arab terrorism in the ME (which in turn provide the alibi for Israeli war crimes).

Cheers
Sandeep

snpol
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by snpol » 22 Nov 2021 18:32

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
22 Nov 2021 13:55
snpol wrote:
22 Nov 2021 05:09
Dili wrote:
22 Nov 2021 03:52
What a hell is this topic doing here?
I believe that Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict is an important issue worth to be investigated to find their direct and indirect links to the Holocaust. I invite you to express your opinion in this context or/and contribute to the thread with factual information.
As any other topic this one could cause discussion that involves wide range of themes including abstract questions about migration processes, examples of migration during human history and current events related to migration.
I would like to note that as it is historical apolitical forum then political discussion is not acceptable. I believe that currents events should not be discussed as well.
Theoretical questions sometimes might sound interesting but without real examples they are mainly pointless.
Ok. Then you are right. The WWII "holocaust", circa 1939-45, gives the alibi for never ending Israeli "war crimes" till date (2021). Should we include the acts of gratuitous terrorism and massacres of the innocent in Mandated Palestine too? The King David Hotel bombing for instance? Directly supervised by Menachem Begin, who subsequently became a Prime Minister in Israel.. (Parallels maybe drawn with terrorists becoming respectable portfolio holders in the present Taliban govt).

This study- https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/j ... 0538/11136 by David Charters argues that Zionist terrorism in Mandated Palestine, laid the foundations for the subsequent 6 decades long Palestinian / Arab terrorism in the ME (which in turn provide the alibi for Israeli war crimes).

Cheers
Sandeep
I wish to avoid any political discussions. However, Jewish terrorism is an important issue that should be addressed in the context of Israeli war crimes.
Religious Jewish terrorism worth to be mentioned separately.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_re ... _terrorism
It's a list of Jewish terrorist groups
Terrorist groups
The following groups have been considered religious terrorist organizations in Israel (in chronological order by establishment year):

Brit HaKanaim (Hebrew: בְּרִית הַקַנַאִים, lit. Covenant of the Zealots) was a radical religious Jewish underground organization which operated in Israel between 1950 and 1953, against the widespread trend of secularisation in the country. The ultimate goal of the movement was to impose Jewish religious law in the State of Israel and establish a Halakhic state.[10]

The Kingdom of Israel group (Hebrew: מלכות ישראל, Malchut Yisrael), or Tzrifin Underground, were active in Israel in the 1950s. The group carried out attacks on the diplomatic facilities of the USSR and Czechoslovakia and occasionally shot at Jordanian troops stationed along the border in Jerusalem. Members of the group were caught trying to bomb the Israeli Ministry of Education in May 1953, have been described as acting because of the secularisation of Jewish North African immigrants which they saw as 'a direct assault on the religious Jews' way of life and as an existential threat to the ultra-Orthodox community in Israel.'[11]
Terrorist groups
The following groups have been considered religious terrorist organizations in Israel (in chronological order by establishment year):

Brit HaKanaim (Hebrew: בְּרִית הַקַנַאִים, lit. Covenant of the Zealots) was a radical religious Jewish underground organization which operated in Israel between 1950 and 1953, against the widespread trend of secularisation in the country. The ultimate goal of the movement was to impose Jewish religious law in the State of Israel and establish a Halakhic state.[10]

Gush Emunim Underground (1979–1984): formed by members of the Israeli political movement Gush Emunim.[12] This group is most well known for two actions: firstly, for bomb attacks on the mayors of West Bank cities on June 2, 1980, and secondly, an abandoned plot to blow up the Temple Mount mosques. The Israeli Judge Zvi Cohen, heading the sentencing panel at the group's trial, stated that they had three motives, "not necessarily shared by all the defendants. The first motive, at the heart of the Temple Mount conspiracy, is religious."[13]
Keshet (Kvutza Shelo Titpasher) (1981–1989): A Tel Aviv anti-Zionist Haredi group focused on bombing property without loss of life.[14][15]: 101  Yigal Marcus, Tel Aviv District Police commander, said that he considered the group a gang of criminals, not a terrorist group.[16]

Kach, a banned far-right party in Israel (officially registered 1971-1994), and its splinter group Kahane Chai (1991-1994), also banned. Today, both groups are considered terrorist organisations by Israel,[17] Canada,[18] the European Union[19] and the United States.[20] The groups are believed to have an overlapping core membership of fewer than 100 people.[21][22] The Jewish Defense League in America, founded by Kahane, is also considered terrorist. FBI statistics show that, from 1980 to 1985, 15 terrorist attacks were attempted in the U.S. by JDL members.[23] The FBI's Mary Doran described the JDL in 2004 Congressional testimony as "a proscribed terrorist group".[24] The National Consortium for the Study of Terror and Responses to Terrorism states that, during the JDL's first two decades of activity, it was an "active terrorist organization."[25][26]

Terror Against Terror (Hebrew: Terror Neged Terror, "TNT"), active 1975–1984, was a radical Jewish militant organization that sponsored several attacks against Palestinian targets. The group was founded by Rabbi Meir Kahane's Kach organization, and took its name from Kahane's theory that Arab terrorism should be met with Jewish terrorism.[27][28]

Sicarii, an Israeli terrorist group founded in 1989 who made arson and graffiti attacks on leftist Jewish politicians. They were opposed to any process of rapprochement with the Palestine Liberation Organization.[29][30]
I don't mention other terrorist groups established after 1999.

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 22 Nov 2021 19:13

snpol wrote:
22 Nov 2021 18:32
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
22 Nov 2021 13:55
snpol wrote:
22 Nov 2021 05:09
Dili wrote:
22 Nov 2021 03:52
What a hell is this topic doing here?
I believe that Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict is an important issue worth to be investigated to find their direct and indirect links to the Holocaust. I invite you to express your opinion in this context or/and contribute to the thread with factual information.
As any other topic this one could cause discussion that involves wide range of themes including abstract questions about migration processes, examples of migration during human history and current events related to migration.
I would like to note that as it is historical apolitical forum then political discussion is not acceptable. I believe that currents events should not be discussed as well.
Theoretical questions sometimes might sound interesting but without real examples they are mainly pointless.
Ok. Then you are right. The WWII "holocaust", circa 1939-45, gives the alibi for never ending Israeli "war crimes" till date (2021). Should we include the acts of gratuitous terrorism and massacres of the innocent in Mandated Palestine too? The King David Hotel bombing for instance? Directly supervised by Menachem Begin, who subsequently became a Prime Minister in Israel.. (Parallels maybe drawn with terrorists becoming respectable portfolio holders in the present Taliban govt).

This study- https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/j ... 0538/11136 by David Charters argues that Zionist terrorism in Mandated Palestine, laid the foundations for the subsequent 6 decades long Palestinian / Arab terrorism in the ME (which in turn provide the alibi for Israeli war crimes).

Cheers
Sandeep
I wish to avoid any political discussions. However, Jewish terrorism is an important issue that should be addressed in the context of Israeli war crimes.
Religious Jewish terrorism worth to be mentioned separately.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_re ... _terrorism
It's a list of Jewish terrorist groups
Terrorist groups
The following groups have been considered religious terrorist organizations in Israel (in chronological order by establishment year):

Brit HaKanaim (Hebrew: בְּרִית הַקַנַאִים, lit. Covenant of the Zealots) was a radical religious Jewish underground organization which operated in Israel between 1950 and 1953, against the widespread trend of secularisation in the country. The ultimate goal of the movement was to impose Jewish religious law in the State of Israel and establish a Halakhic state.[10]

The Kingdom of Israel group (Hebrew: מלכות ישראל, Malchut Yisrael), or Tzrifin Underground, were active in Israel in the 1950s. The group carried out attacks on the diplomatic facilities of the USSR and Czechoslovakia and occasionally shot at Jordanian troops stationed along the border in Jerusalem. Members of the group were caught trying to bomb the Israeli Ministry of Education in May 1953, have been described as acting because of the secularisation of Jewish North African immigrants which they saw as 'a direct assault on the religious Jews' way of life and as an existential threat to the ultra-Orthodox community in Israel.'[11]
Terrorist groups
The following groups have been considered religious terrorist organizations in Israel (in chronological order by establishment year):

Brit HaKanaim (Hebrew: בְּרִית הַקַנַאִים, lit. Covenant of the Zealots) was a radical religious Jewish underground organization which operated in Israel between 1950 and 1953, against the widespread trend of secularisation in the country. The ultimate goal of the movement was to impose Jewish religious law in the State of Israel and establish a Halakhic state.[10]

Gush Emunim Underground (1979–1984): formed by members of the Israeli political movement Gush Emunim.[12] This group is most well known for two actions: firstly, for bomb attacks on the mayors of West Bank cities on June 2, 1980, and secondly, an abandoned plot to blow up the Temple Mount mosques. The Israeli Judge Zvi Cohen, heading the sentencing panel at the group's trial, stated that they had three motives, "not necessarily shared by all the defendants. The first motive, at the heart of the Temple Mount conspiracy, is religious."[13]
Keshet (Kvutza Shelo Titpasher) (1981–1989): A Tel Aviv anti-Zionist Haredi group focused on bombing property without loss of life.[14][15]: 101  Yigal Marcus, Tel Aviv District Police commander, said that he considered the group a gang of criminals, not a terrorist group.[16]

Kach, a banned far-right party in Israel (officially registered 1971-1994), and its splinter group Kahane Chai (1991-1994), also banned. Today, both groups are considered terrorist organisations by Israel,[17] Canada,[18] the European Union[19] and the United States.[20] The groups are believed to have an overlapping core membership of fewer than 100 people.[21][22] The Jewish Defense League in America, founded by Kahane, is also considered terrorist. FBI statistics show that, from 1980 to 1985, 15 terrorist attacks were attempted in the U.S. by JDL members.[23] The FBI's Mary Doran described the JDL in 2004 Congressional testimony as "a proscribed terrorist group".[24] The National Consortium for the Study of Terror and Responses to Terrorism states that, during the JDL's first two decades of activity, it was an "active terrorist organization."[25][26]

Terror Against Terror (Hebrew: Terror Neged Terror, "TNT"), active 1975–1984, was a radical Jewish militant organization that sponsored several attacks against Palestinian targets. The group was founded by Rabbi Meir Kahane's Kach organization, and took its name from Kahane's theory that Arab terrorism should be met with Jewish terrorism.[27][28]

Sicarii, an Israeli terrorist group founded in 1989 who made arson and graffiti attacks on leftist Jewish politicians. They were opposed to any process of rapprochement with the Palestine Liberation Organization.[29][30]
I don't mention other terrorist groups established after 1999.
I have not and would not bring up any political "jewish terrorism" issue, post the formation of the state of Israel.

My point is that the Zionist terrorism in mandated palestine facilitated the grand land theft from Palestinians and the formation of the state of Israel. AND set off a vicious circle of violence thenceforth in ME. PLO and others going into terrorism as a means of reclaiming their land, leading to Israeli war crimes which further radicalised generations of Palestinians and Arabs.

Today's generations, as David Charters says, equate terrorism with Arabs and their religion, with the genesis totally blanked out.

Cheers
Sandeep

snpol
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Location: Moscow

Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by snpol » 22 Nov 2021 20:45

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
22 Nov 2021 19:13
I have not and would not bring up any political "jewish terrorism" issue, post the formation of the state of Israel.

My point is that the Zionist terrorism in mandated palestine facilitated the grand land theft from Palestinians and the formation of the state of Israel. AND set off a vicious circle of violence thenceforth in ME. PLO and others going into terrorism as a means of reclaiming their land, leading to Israeli war crimes which further radicalised generations of Palestinians and Arabs.

Today's generations, as David Charters says, equate terrorism with Arabs and their religion, with the genesis totally blanked out.

Cheers
Sandeep
Don’t judge, so that you won’t be judged
I dare not to say what side in the ME conflict is guilty or more guilty. War crimes and terrorism are unacceptable in any case.

David Thompson
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by David Thompson » 24 Nov 2021 04:11

A frivolous post, which added nothing of factual interest to the discusion, from LineDoggie was removed.

KDF33
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by KDF33 » 24 Nov 2021 05:32

mikegriffith1 wrote:
20 Nov 2021 15:53
The Palestinians would have a larger homeland today if they had not rejected the UN's 1947 partition plan
Why start the clock in 1947?

The Balfour Declaration was written in 1917 and the Mandate established in 1920. Already in 1919, Palestine Arab elites rejected Zionism and voiced support for a union with Syria, which was denied by the British and French - and indeed violently suppressed by the latter at Maysalun.

If you occupy a territory, impose colonial government structures, reject the national aspirations of the resident population and impose foreign migration that slowly transforms the locals into a minority in their own land, how can you be surprised when some of them lash our violently?
mikegriffith1 wrote:
20 Nov 2021 15:53
Sorry, when you reject a fair partition plan and invite Arab armies to come wipe out the Jews, you have no right to complain when those same Jews are in no mood to forget your treachery and allow you to stay.
How could the Palestinians 'reject' and 'invite' anything, when the British never granted them self-determination?

Besides, your 'fair partition plan' is pretty much in the eye of the beholder.

snpol
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Location: Moscow

Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by snpol » 24 Nov 2021 10:47

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khiam_detention_center
The Khiam Detention Center, located near Khiam, Lebanon, was a French army barracks complex originally built in the 1930s. It became a base for the Lebanese army before falling under control of the South Lebanon Army (SLA), an Israeli-backed breakaway group of soldiers formed during the Lebanese civil war. In 1985 the base was converted into a prison camp was used for torture and remained in use until Israel’s withdrawal from Lebanon in May 2000, and the subsequent collapse of the SLA. After the withdrawal, the prison camp was preserved in the condition it was abandoned and converted into a museum by the Lebanese government.
During the 2006 Lebanon War, the Israeli Air Force bombed and destroyed the museum, allegedly to hide the evidence of torture and mistreatment used there.
For years Israel played a role of occupation power in Southern Lebanon. So it bore responsibility for any wrongdoings.
https://www.hrw.org/news/1999/10/27/tor ... untability
Israel is obligated as a state party to the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment to investigate Gen. Lahd, current and former SLA commanders of the prison, and other militiamen responsible for the crimes of inflicting, instigating, and acquiescing to acts of torture at Khiam.
Ibrahim Qalash, detained without charge in Khiam from 1985 to 1990, said that two Israelis who spoke heavily accented Arabic interrogated him about twenty times during a sixty-day period. He described how he was hanged from his bound wrists for long periods and electric-shocked on his fingers, feet, and ears. "The Israelis would start asking questions, and then call in Lebanese and instruct them on the type of torture to use," he told me. Qalash also testified that one of his Israeli interrogators once became "fed up" and told the Lebanese militiamen present: "Take him and do whatever you want with him." He said that his worst experience was "being suspended from my wrists outside and hearing the cries of people in the interrogation room. You could tell the type of torture from the screams. When they used electricity, the first thing you heard was a high-pitched cry." Qalash was a witness to the circumstances of the death of Ali Hamzeh in 1985, who he said was hanged naked on a cold night and found dead the next morning.
One could recall Gestapo in this context.
It is indisputable that systematic torture occurred in Khiam. And the continuing partnership between Israel and the SLA on matters related to this prison implicates Lebanese and Israelis with legal responsibility for criminal actions. In addition to the periodic visits of GSS personnel, the defense ministry's affidavit admitted that Israel and the SLA "consult each other regarding the arrest and release of people in the Khiam facility" and that "information from the interrogations in Khiam is transferred by the SLA to Israeli security forces." The international community must insist that Israel not turn a blind eye to its complicity in torture at Khiam, which now includes admitted use of information yielded from abusive interrogations. Israel is obligated under international law to hold accountable and prosecute its own citizens and Lebanese nationals who participated in or condoned acts of torture at Khiam.

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