Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

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joeylonglegs
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Posts: 36
Joined: 01 May 2021 14:18
Location: Pittsburgh PA

Re: Re:

Post by joeylonglegs » 06 Dec 2021 17:39

George L Gregory wrote:
05 Dec 2021 14:01
joeylonglegs wrote:
16 Nov 2021 16:01
Benoit Douville wrote:
23 Jul 2003 23:41
The megalomaniac Stalin did commit Holocaust in Ukraine. About 7 to 10 Million people died by deliberate extermination in 1932-33:

Http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine

Regards
Do you have historical evidence that the 1932-33 famine was a deliberate extermination attempt against the Ukrainian people by Stalin?
That’s debated amongst scholars. Some scholars suggest it was carried out by Joseph Stalin to stop any sort of Ukrainian independence. Several countries regard it as a genocide.
There are also those who blame a systematic set of policies perpetrated by the Soviet government under Stalin designed to exterminate the Ukrainians.

Scholarly positions are diverse. Raphael Lemkin, James Mace, Norman Naimark, Timothy Snyder and Anne Applebaum considered the Holodomor a genocide and the intentional result of Stalinist policies.
However,
Robert Davies, Stephen Kotkin, and Stephen Wheatcroft reject the notion that Stalin intentionally wanted to kill the Ukrainians, but exacerbated the situation by enacting bad policies and ignorance of the problem. In 1991, American historian Mark Tauger considered the Holodomor primarily the result of natural conditions and failed economic policy, not intentional state policy.
No, I wasn't suggesting that the famine was a genocide. I was just asking the other guy for evidence that it was intentional. I agree with Davies and Wheatcroft's position that while Stalin's policies exacerbated the famine, he did not have an intent to commit genocide of the Ukrainian people.

George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 753
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Re: Re:

Post by George L Gregory » 07 Dec 2021 12:31

joeylonglegs wrote:
06 Dec 2021 17:39
George L Gregory wrote:
05 Dec 2021 14:01
joeylonglegs wrote:
16 Nov 2021 16:01
Benoit Douville wrote:
23 Jul 2003 23:41
The megalomaniac Stalin did commit Holocaust in Ukraine. About 7 to 10 Million people died by deliberate extermination in 1932-33:

Http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine

Regards
Do you have historical evidence that the 1932-33 famine was a deliberate extermination attempt against the Ukrainian people by Stalin?
That’s debated amongst scholars. Some scholars suggest it was carried out by Joseph Stalin to stop any sort of Ukrainian independence. Several countries regard it as a genocide.
There are also those who blame a systematic set of policies perpetrated by the Soviet government under Stalin designed to exterminate the Ukrainians.

Scholarly positions are diverse. Raphael Lemkin, James Mace, Norman Naimark, Timothy Snyder and Anne Applebaum considered the Holodomor a genocide and the intentional result of Stalinist policies.
However,
Robert Davies, Stephen Kotkin, and Stephen Wheatcroft reject the notion that Stalin intentionally wanted to kill the Ukrainians, but exacerbated the situation by enacting bad policies and ignorance of the problem. In 1991, American historian Mark Tauger considered the Holodomor primarily the result of natural conditions and failed economic policy, not intentional state policy.
No, I wasn't suggesting that the famine was a genocide. I was just asking the other guy for evidence that it was intentional. I agree with Davies and Wheatcroft's position that while Stalin's policies exacerbated the famine, he did not have an intent to commit genocide of the Ukrainian people.
What makes you come to that conclusion?

Have you read the arguments made by the people who think Stalin did want to commit genocide against the Ukrainians?

Cantankerous
Member
Posts: 530
Joined: 01 Sep 2019 21:22
Location: Newport Coast

Re: Re:

Post by Cantankerous » 08 Dec 2021 17:13

George L Gregory wrote:
07 Dec 2021 12:31
joeylonglegs wrote:
06 Dec 2021 17:39
George L Gregory wrote:
05 Dec 2021 14:01
joeylonglegs wrote:
16 Nov 2021 16:01
Benoit Douville wrote:
23 Jul 2003 23:41
The megalomaniac Stalin did commit Holocaust in Ukraine. About 7 to 10 Million people died by deliberate extermination in 1932-33:

Http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine

Regards
Do you have historical evidence that the 1932-33 famine was a deliberate extermination attempt against the Ukrainian people by Stalin?
That’s debated amongst scholars. Some scholars suggest it was carried out by Joseph Stalin to stop any sort of Ukrainian independence. Several countries regard it as a genocide.
There are also those who blame a systematic set of policies perpetrated by the Soviet government under Stalin designed to exterminate the Ukrainians.

Scholarly positions are diverse. Raphael Lemkin, James Mace, Norman Naimark, Timothy Snyder and Anne Applebaum considered the Holodomor a genocide and the intentional result of Stalinist policies.
However,
Robert Davies, Stephen Kotkin, and Stephen Wheatcroft reject the notion that Stalin intentionally wanted to kill the Ukrainians, but exacerbated the situation by enacting bad policies and ignorance of the problem. In 1991, American historian Mark Tauger considered the Holodomor primarily the result of natural conditions and failed economic policy, not intentional state policy.
No, I wasn't suggesting that the famine was a genocide. I was just asking the other guy for evidence that it was intentional. I agree with Davies and Wheatcroft's position that while Stalin's policies exacerbated the famine, he did not have an intent to commit genocide of the Ukrainian people.
What makes you come to that conclusion?

Have you read the arguments made by the people who think Stalin did want to commit genocide against the Ukrainians?
This matter has been discussed elsewhere:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1122&p=2285722&hili ... r#p2285722

Here are the sources whereby the Holodomor is considered genocide by Lemkin, Mace, Naimark, Snyder, and Applebaum:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... ode=cele20
https://education.holodomor.ca/teaching ... of-lemkin/
https://shron1.chtyvo.org.ua/James_Mace ... nggmbksd50
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... story.html
https://www.rferl.org/a/historican-anne ... 56181.html

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