LIPA 1944

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: LIPA 1944

Post by Ivan Ž. » 12 Jul 2016 11:04

Thank you very much for the comparison-pics. It wouldn't be the first time that Strugar's information (location/date) turns out to be false. Does anyone know the initial source of this photo (does anyone have it in better quality)?

Image

Indeed, none of those men (from both pics) look anything like SS-Karstwehr troops (at least not like those that I've seen so far).

Cheers,
Ivan

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: LIPA 1944

Post by Ivan Ž. » 15 Jul 2016 14:24

From the Rijeka Archive (via croinfo.net): could anyone identify the house on the left / the village it was in? Photo was taken in April 1944, maybe in Lipa or in one of the nearby villages (soldiers pulling a pig are members of the 188th Mt. Div.).

svinja.jpg
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Ivan Ž. wrote:Does anyone know the initial source of this photo (does anyone have it in better quality)?

Image
Found it. So far all of the confirmed Lipa photos show that some members of the 188th Mountain Division were definitely involved in that crime (that would be the 1st Btl. 3rd Rgt.). No Waffen-SS troops visible in any of the pics. The main involved unit is probably a police unit. It seems there was at least one man in an Italian uniform present too.

Ivan
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Stefano
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Re: LIPA 1944

Post by Stefano » 29 Jan 2017 20:13

Hello
this book has just been published:

Stefano Di Giusto - Tommaso Chiussi: “Globocnik's men in Italy 1943-45. Abteilung R and the SS-Wachmannschaften of the OZAK”, Schiffer Publishing.

It describes the activities of the infamous Abteilung R in the "Operational Zone Adriatic Littoral" region (OZAK).
The book also covers the SS-Wachmannschaften (SS guards units) of the OZAK, military units that were formed locally and had links with Abteilung R.
Chapters are included on uniforms and insignia, weapons and vehicles, as well as many photographs related to anti-partisan operations in the region.

The book has a section dealing with the Lipa massacre. According to our researches, Abteilung R was responsible for it (I thereby correct what I wrote in my "OZAK" book some years ago, where I stated - based on what was known at the time - that the Karstwehr-Btl. was responsible). The officer on the left of the photo with the Gebirgsjaeger in the middle is almost certainly SS-Ustuf. Oberhauser from Abeilung R. Also involved in Lipa were Italian Milizia soldiers and apparently some Chetniks.

Further information on the book under http://www.panzer-ozak.it/globocniksmen_en.htm

Stefano Di Giusto

Mark V.
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Re: LIPA 1944

Post by Mark V. » 29 Jan 2017 20:39

Great work, Stefano. So, Oberhauser and not Walter?

Looking forward to reading the book.
Marko

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: LIPA 1944

Post by Ivan Ž. » 29 Jan 2017 22:23

Thank you for the info, Stefano.

The book certainly looks promising!

Best,
Ivan

Stefano
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Re: LIPA 1944

Post by Stefano » 05 Feb 2017 13:53

Hello Mark
Walther commanded the Castenuovo / Podgrad outpost of Abteilung R, which is said to have participated to the massacre; the photo taken in Lipa shows however Oberhauser, quite clearly.
best regards
Stefano

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G. Trifkovic
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Re: LIPA 1944

Post by G. Trifkovic » 05 Feb 2017 14:21

Congratulations on your new book Stefano!

Cheers,

G.

Jakob Raunacher
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Re: LIPA 1944

Post by Jakob Raunacher » 09 Jul 2017 00:19

Dear Stefano,

Oberhauser had "Unterschnitt Frisur", very popular between nazi officers. It is documented on all of his photos, no matter in what period of the war was photographed. The officer documented on the mentioned photo have different hair style. Can you reconsider your opinion?

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Re: LIPA 1944

Post by Jakob Raunacher » 10 Jul 2017 09:25

Ivan Ž. wrote: Found it. So far all of the confirmed Lipa photos show that some members of the 188th Mountain Division were definitely involved in that crime (that would be the 1st Btl. 3rd Rgt.). No Waffen-SS troops visible in any of the pics. The main involved unit is probably a police unit. It seems there was at least one man in an Italian uniform present too.
Ivan
What is your source for the claim that on the photo are members of 1st Btl. 3rd Rgt. of the 188th Mountain Division?

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: LIPA 1944

Post by Ivan Ž. » 10 Jul 2017 11:04

I must correct myself - they are members of the 188th Mountain Division, but I am not sure of which battalion (I apologise, I was writing in a hurry). The sources are the photos from the State Archives in Rijeka showing Heer mountain troopers (together with German police and Italian militia) in the village of Lipa and the Heer mountain unit that participated in this operation (Braunschweig) was the 188th Mountain Division (in the well-sourced article "Operacija Braunschweig" by P. Predoević, there are two battalions listed: I/138 and Btl. Heine = III/139).

Ivan

Stefano
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Re: LIPA 1944

Post by Stefano » 10 Jul 2017 17:35

Jakob Raunacher wrote:Dear Stefano,

Oberhauser had "Unterschnitt Frisur", very popular between nazi officers. It is documented on all of his photos, no matter in what period of the war was photographed. The officer documented on the mentioned photo have different hair style. Can you reconsider your opinion?
Hello
I guess "Unterschnitt Frisur" is very short hair on the side and back of the head?
There are 4 known photos of Oberhauser in Italy and all show longer hair, very similar to that of the photo on Lipa; see for instance this photo (he’s second from right): http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh/multim ... _1_web.jpg
In my opinion it remains very likely that it is him on the Lipa photo.
Stefano

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Re: LIPA 1944

Post by Jakob Raunacher » 10 Jul 2017 19:05

It will be usefull for other participants of these theme to indicate the sources of informations. Petra Predoveić in her work (https://regskordinator.files.wordpress. ... chweig.pdf) refers on two works of Anton Giron: "Zapadna Hrvatska u Drugom svjetskom ratu" (recheable on http://www.znaci.net/00003/689.pdf) and »Zločin u Lipi 1944. godine« (published in Pazinski memorijal 7, Pazin 1977.). There he mentioned as source of his informations archive fond of "Zemaljska komisija za ratne
zločine" in Croatian State Archive and book of Roland Kaltenegger, Zona d’operazione Litorale Adriatico, pages 167-180 and 197-204.

Giron was superb historian for his time.

Tom3277
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Re: LIPA 1944

Post by Tom3277 » 10 Jul 2017 19:53

Good evening,

I must say the resemblance between the two is quite astonishing IMO (on the right a pre-war picture while on the left with longer hair as already witnessed by other shots of Oberhauser while serving in Italy).
BTW in our new book we were able to ID the Gebirgsjäger unit which the mountain-troopers photographed in Lipa were probably
members of (some of them were probably based in Sapjane).
If interested in these subjects you may find a lot of additional infos in our book.

Best regards
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Looking for the Soldbuch of Hptw.d.SchP. Kurt Etowski.

Jakob Raunacher
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Re: LIPA 1944

Post by Jakob Raunacher » 10 Jul 2017 22:30

Stefano wrote: Hello
I guess "Unterschnitt Frisur" is very short hair on the side and back of the head?
There are 4 known photos of Oberhauser in Italy and all show longer hair, very similar to that of the photo on Lipa; see for instance this photo (he’s second from right): http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh/multim ... _1_web.jpg
In my opinion it remains very likely that it is him on the Lipa photo.
Stefano
I know his photos from Yad Vashem sites http://collections1.yadvashem.org/noteb ... site=sapir and http://collections1.yadvashem.org/noteb ... site=sapir.

On your photo he looks much older, as on his trial in the 1963.

Thanks on posting your image.

Jakob Raunacher
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Re: LIPA 1944

Post by Jakob Raunacher » 10 Jul 2017 22:54

Tom3277 wrote:Good evening,

I must say the resemblance between the two is quite astonishing IMO (on the right a pre-war picture while on the left with longer hair as already witnessed by other shots of Oberhauser while serving in Italy).
BTW in our new book we were able to ID the Gebirgsjäger unit which the mountain-troopers photographed in Lipa were probably
members of (some of them were probably based in Sapjane).
If interested in these subjects you may find a lot of additional infos in our book.

Best regards
Good "blowup"! This comparison is very persuasive.

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