Dresden, 1945

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sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 23 Mar 2017 16:07

Michael Kenny wrote:
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
Oh my ! I thought the embarrassment was due from you..in ignoring an original historical record unearthed by a historian (or a criminal .. that's of no material consequence in this context) that has a direct bearing to the thread !
...........
The document in question has been know for about a decade.
The consensus is it adds nothing that can seriously change the record.
...........
Any reference or evidence of this "consensus" ? Or would you again indignantly refuse to descend to such trivialities and order the seekers of evidence to go look for it themselves?

histan
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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by histan » 23 Mar 2017 16:11

Hi Black Rabbit

Sorry to show my lack of detailed knowledge but who produced the original document TB47 and do you have any idea when the fake version might have been produced? It might help explain some figures in another reference I have found.

Regards

John

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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by histan » 23 Mar 2017 16:13

Sandeep

Please can you explain how this document changes anything? It's totally consistent with the 25,000 to 35,000 figures.

Regards

John

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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by histan » 23 Mar 2017 16:41

Michael

I now realize that I was wrong in saying that the argument was just about two numbers that were quite close together.

Equating Dresden to the Holocaust is a key element used by the Holocaust deniers and those who wish to question its unique place in the Second World War and the 20th century history of Europe.

David Irving has played a key role creating the myth that Dresden was itself unique to an extent that it could be placed alongside the Holocaust by vastly inflating the casualty figures. Since, at the time he was considered to be a trustworthy source his misinformation (deliberate lies?) polluted the whole view of Dresden in the public perception. I was shocked to read in the post by Black Rabbit that this distortion had reached such an extent that the designers of a memorial to the Holocaust should contemplate putting Dresden on that memorial. It would have turned out to such a massive victory for those who wish to minimize the Holocaust.

Work on the casualty figures that produces the 25,000 to 35,000 figure simply negates the equivalence between Dresden and the Holocaust and removes a key plank in the case of the "minimizers" that the Holocaust was just one among many activities, some of which were conducted by the allies. That is why there is such a tenacious defence mounted of these obviously inflated figures, in the face of all the evidence of the true number of casualties.

What has changed since the 1980s is the realization that David Irving created a Dresden myth and that in the light of all the currently available information no one except the "minimizers" now equates Dresden to the Holocaust.

Regards

John

PS not to say that there is not a discussion to be had around Discrimination and Proportionality.

The Black Rabbit of Inlé
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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by The Black Rabbit of Inlé » 23 Mar 2017 16:52

histan wrote:Hi Black Rabbit

Sorry to show my lack of detailed knowledge but who produced the original document TB47 and do you have any idea when the fake version might have been produced? It might help explain some figures in another reference I have found.

Regards

John
Hi John.

I'm relying on Sir Richard Evans for most things re Dresden. Following is what he wrote in his report. I'll check to see whether anything else was revealed during the actual trial.
RJ Evans wrote:Between the English editions of 1963 and 1966 and the German editions of 1965 and 1967 [of Destruction of Dresden} Irving acquired a copy of the now notorious Order of the Day no. 47 [Der Höhere SS und Polizeiführer, Dresden: Tagesbefehl Nr. 47, Luftangriff auf Dresden, henceforth TB 47]. TB 47 was dated 22 March 1945 and attributed to a Colonel Grosse. It introduced itself as ‘a brief extract from the concluding statement of the Police President of Dresden’, i.e. an earlier document. Irving’s copy of the report, besides detailing other physical damages, put the final death-roll at an incredible 202,040 and expressed an expectation that the figure would rise to 250,000 by the time all the victims had been recovered. Irving gave the document full prominence in the English edition of 1966 and the German edition of 1967, and reproduced it in both as an appendix.

It must be borne in mind at this point that Irving was not in fact the first person to have seen or written about TB 47. Max Seydewitz had photographically reproduced a dissected copy of it and had dismissed it as forgery as early as 1955.[*][/color] Irving had in fact cited Seydewitz in 1963 himself and branded the document an ingenious piece of propaganda and ‘spurious’![334] In changing his mind, Irving reported that he had previously not seen the report himself. Seydewitz had only quoted a few sentences, but on seeing the ‘whole’ Irving could no longer agree that it was a forgery.[335]

Irving was coy in print in naming his source, other than referring to him as a ‘Dresden private citizen’ and a ‘doctor’ who had been one of many medical officials and local officers to have received the document through ‘official channels’ in March 1945.[336] From Irving’s collected documents it is clear that the indirect source was indeed a Dresden citizen, Dr. Max Funfack.[337] In 1995 Irving claimed that by 1965 he had seen two other copies of TB 47, one which had been shown to the playwright Rolf Hochhuth. Although Irving claimed that the original had not been found, he described Hochhuth’s copy as a ‘typed original with several hand-written corrections.’[338]

In fact Irving had not obtained TB 47 directly from Funfack but from a Dresden photographer, Walter Hahn, who was a friend of Funfack’s. Funfack had ‘confidently’ shown Hahn the document and ‘without Funfack’s knowledge, Hahn copied the entire document, and made a typewritten copy of it.’ [339] Irving in turn had visited Hahn on 18 November 1964 and had chanced upon the document on Hahn’s desk whereupon he asked him to copy it. Hahn’s wife began to type a copy,
while in the sitting room I, Hahn and [Walter] Lange [Director of the Dresden City Archive] began to discuss the implications of the “200,000” figure. Lange had not realised that it gave this figure, and I at once realised why Hahn had seemed reluctant to show it to me (in fact he had had that probably since 1950 or so, yet he had not shown it to me on any of my previous visits in 1962 and 1963). As soon as Lange began to expostulate on this document being a patent forgery, Hahn became very worried, and when his wife brought in the typed copy, plus four carbon copies, and I took one of the copies, he urgently asked me to give it back to him - but realising that they could not very well fight me for it if I was the guest of the Lord Mayor I folded it up and put it into my wallet and assured them that I too thought it highly unlikely that the figure mentioned was genuine…. [340]
Irving’s proposal to visit Funfack that day was rejected by Lange and Hahn, and Irving apparently sufficed himself with an intention to write to Funfack on his return to England.[341] In the following discussion it is important to remember that what Irving had obtained in Dresden was a copy of a copy of a document, unauthenticated by any distinguishing marks such as a signature or an official stamp of any description.

[...]

[* "Max Seydewitz, Zerstörung und Wiederaufbau von Dresden (East Berlin, 1955), pp. 105f. Seydewitz was Dresden’s post-war mayor at the time of publication"]

334. Kimber [first edition of DoD] 1963, p. 207.

335. Corgi [revised edition of DoD] 1966, p. 280. It does not say much for Irving’s self-proclaimed skill and scrupulosity as a researcher that he should initially have dismissed a document as a forgery without actually having seen it at all.

336. Corgi 1966, p. 280.

337. DJ [DJ refers to Irving's private papers he was obliged to hand over to Penguin/Lipstadt legal team] 10, New information on death roll in Allied air raids on Dresden, 1945, introduction, dated November 1964, p. 7.

338. Hochhuth’s copy was sent to him by Dankwart Guratzsch as a result of an article in the German illustrated Der Stern. Guratzsch had found it amongst the papers of his father, who in turn may have received it from one of his students, a Dresden policeman. Indeed Guratzsch described his copy as ‘a typed copy, with many, partly hand-written, corrections.’ But what he sent Hochhuth was a copy typed by Gurazsch himself. Hochhuth provided Irving with Guratzsch’s address and suggested he contact him himself, but any correspondence with Guratzsch are not contained in Irving’s records. See DJ 10, Dankwart Guratzsch to Rolf Hochhuth, 3 July 1965; Rolf Hochhuth to Irving, 10 September 1965; DJ 35, ‘Further information on Tagesbefehl extracted from my Day Book’.

339. DJ 10, New information on death roll in Allied air raids on Dresden, 1945, introduction, dated November 1964, p. 7. Hahn is also named as Irving’s source for the ‘forged’ TB47 in a letter from Weidauer. See DJ 35, Walter Weidauer to Irving, 21 November 1966.

340. DJ 10, New information on death roll in Allied air raids on Dresden, 1945, introduction, dated November 1964, p. 8.

http://www.phdn.org/negation/irving/EvansReport.pdf

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Nickdfresh
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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by Nickdfresh » 23 Mar 2017 16:53

The Black Rabbit of Inlé wrote: I must have missed that. Please quote it and provide a link.
Well not yours but basically others, see page 5 of this thread for his feelings as I will speak for him no further....
I've *relied* on Irving as a source ONCE in this entire thread. It was for an entry in the OKL War Diary and only because A) it's a source that Evans didn't contest, and B) the figure of homeless estimated by the OKL precisely matches the figure the Dresden Civil Police Commander used the same day in a message intercept and decoded by the British.
I'm not sure what you're arguing about here as I never said you used him more than once, at least in the comment you quoted of mine. But which ever specific documents you want to cite, that's fine. A hysterical polizei commander guesstimating the number of refugees in a chaotic, deteriorating situation after a horrific bombing raid and in the face of an advancing "horde" of vengeful Red Army forces may not be the most reliable historical source and certainly is not to be trusted solely, if at all to ascertain some correlation of bombing casualties....
That's what's known as "corroborating evidence".
Or logical fallacy...
I didn't rely on Irving for the 24.03.45 80-100K decode, I went to Kew and spent almost a day looking for it [he didn't cite the file reference] to confirm whether it was genuine or not.
Okay. You mean the "missing" "80-100K decode"...
Despite the CAPITALISED EMPHASIS, you're wrong.

RJ Evans wrote that in the original 1963 of edition DoD Irving actually labelled the fake version of TB47—which supported Goebbels' figures—as spurious propaganda.
Actually, Irving states in the original 1963 version that the high end of the casualty/death rate is upwards of from 100,000-250,000, the upward figure being actually well in excess of the figure given by Goebbels and his "extra 0"...
Irving went with Voigt's 135,000 estimate in the original 1963, the 1964, and then the 1965 German translation of DoD. Irving seems to have also used that figure in his series of 1961 articles in Neue Illustrierte about the Allied bombing of Germany which were subsequently published in book-form as Und Deutschlands Städte starben nicht in 1962 and 1963.
Voight or Eaker? Irving picked a random figure generated without much study, but I guess it fit snugly between the 100,000-250K, until the patent absurdity of his assertions force him to revise the figures downward in later editions...
It was only in the 1966 revised English edition and 1967 revised German translation of DoD that Irving first suggested the figure could be around what Goebbels had claimed. This was due to Irving getting hold of one of the fake versions of TB47 and started claiming, at least for a bit, that it was genuine after all.

Evans also mentions some German newspaper and magazine articles/letters from 1965ish in which Irving or his German publisher defended the Goebbels-esque figures, obviously written after Irving about-faced on the fake versions TB47.
Oh boy. Fake, real versions. I think the whole thing is pretty much a fake version based on spurious history...

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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 23 Mar 2017 17:15

histan wrote:Sandeep

Please can you explain how this document changes anything? It's totally consistent with the 25,000 to 35,000 figures.

Regards

John
John ..the black humour is I have made no claims or inferences from this document at any point. However I have been repeatedly put on the mat for something which is not my contention.

I have all along said that it is mighty odd that as Black Rabbit claims, no one has ever done or said anything based on this seemingly authentic document. If it is bogus then too someone should have said it. If not...this was certainly a valid trigger for further research.

When that doesn't happen for many years.. then all sorts of speculations come up.

I am curious to know why nothing has been heard about this and if someone did something about it then what was the outcome.

Cheers
Sandeep

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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by histan » 23 Mar 2017 17:16

Hi Black Rabbit

Thank you for your detailed post.

I have found in another study a reference to an estimate produced by the Luftwaffe. Any idea what that might be?

Regards

John

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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by histan » 23 Mar 2017 17:28

Sandeep

If it is consistent with all the other material and doesn't change any conclusions why would anyone say anything and why would they conduct new research?

David Irving's reputation as a historian has been destroyed. Speculation - how can that be countered - cast aspersions against all the other historians - they are all working to an agenda and you can't believe any of them. Straight out of the Maskirovka playbook - Putin would be proud!

Not saying that's you...... just all sorts of speculations come up.

Regards

John

The Black Rabbit of Inlé
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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by The Black Rabbit of Inlé » 23 Mar 2017 17:34

histan wrote:Hi Black Rabbit

Thank you for your detailed post.

I have found in another study a reference to an estimate produced by the Luftwaffe. Any idea what that might be?

Regards

John
No worries, John.

The only Luftwaffe connected estimate I've heard of is the one I mentioned earlier on the thread:
The 14.02.45 entry in the War Diary of the German Air Force High Command states: "There are now 500,000 homeless in a city of 650,000 inhabitants—a figure enormously swollen by refugees". Cited by Irving; not challenged by Evans.

histan
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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by histan » 23 Mar 2017 17:54

Hi Black Rabbit

There was a Foreign Military Studies (FMS) study P-050. It quotes some figures but provides no references for them - a couple seem similar to others I have seen quoted here but the rest I am unsure about. Some of the dates seem hazy and need correlating with other allied raids. The author was in a senior staff position in Dresden at the end of the war but was not in post at the time of the attacks and doesn't seem to have any first hand knowledge of the attack or its immediate aftermath.

This study could be useful in discussing the military value, as perceived by the Germans, of the military targets in Dresden which the author does have knowledge of.

Regards

John

The Black Rabbit of Inlé
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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by The Black Rabbit of Inlé » 23 Mar 2017 18:26

The Black Rabbit of Inlé wrote:Actually, Irving states in the original 1963 version that the high end of the casualty/death rate is upwards of from 100,000-250,000, the upward figure being actually well in excess of the figure given by Goebbels and his "extra 0"...
Do you really expect anyone will accept your say-so as more authoritative than the report compiled for a High Court trial after 2/3 years of research into Irving's claims by an Oxbridge history professor assisted by two history grad. students, one of them being Nicholas Wachsmann?

Go on then, quote the text from the original '63 edition of DoD where Irving wrote what you claim he did; providing page number[s], and the title of the chapter[s] you're quoting from. Photos or scans of the pages would be good, can you manage that as well?

Can you also provide some proof that Goebbels could have been behind the "extra 0" [recte: 0s] on the doctored version of TB 47, such as a source which features the figures 202,040 and 250,000 that was published whilst Goebbels was still alive.

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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by Nickdfresh » 24 Mar 2017 00:20

Um, what? LOL

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Nickdfresh
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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by Nickdfresh » 24 Mar 2017 01:06

Are really defending Josef Goebbels? :D

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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by Nickdfresh » 24 Mar 2017 01:09

The Black Rabbit of Inlé wrote: Do you really expect anyone will accept your say-so as more authoritative than the report compiled for a High Court trial after 2/3 years of research into Irving's claims by an Oxbridge history professor assisted by two history grad. students, one of them being Nicholas Wachsmann?
IDK, what were their findings> Please be specific...
Go on then, quote the text from the original '63 edition of DoD where Irving wrote what you claim he did; providing page number[s], and the title of the chapter[s] you're quoting from. Photos or scans of the pages would be good, can you manage that as well?
Sure, all in good time...
Can you also provide some proof that Goebbels could have been behind the "extra 0" [recte: 0s] on the doctored version of TB 47, such as a source which features the figures 202,040 and 250,000 that was published whilst Goebbels was still alive.
Oh, save the Goebbels!

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