Dresden, 1945

[CabinetMinister]

I see you are sorrily misunderstanding me, buddy. At least write in English so that our audience may follow. When you do, I will respond.

Was habe ich denn nicht verstanden ? Oder hast Du etwa nicht vor ein paar Wochen mehrere Beiträge in einer anderen Sprache geschrieben ? Soll ich die Links suchen ?

[CabinetMinister]

It is also clear that Dresden has become, to use Scott Smith's favorite term, its own Gruelpropaganda, and a single incident in a war that saw the destruction of many European cities from aerial and combined infantry/armor/artillery attacks that are somehow forgotten, or judged of lesser significance. Fortunately for the Allied cities, the Reich lacked the number and size of heavy bombers needed to achieve the same goals.

Lets stay by the term "Dresden Revisionism". I like it.

[Marcus]

CabinetMinister,

Please write in english.

/Marcus

[Roberto]

I see you are sorrily misunderstanding me, buddy. At least write in English so that our audience may follow. When you do, I will respond.

Was habe ich denn nicht verstanden ? Oder hast Du etwa nicht vor ein paar Wochen mehrere Beiträge in einer anderen Sprache geschrieben ? Soll ich die Links suchen ?

As you wish, Mr. Querkopf. But then don't be surprised if your messages don't reach those who might be interested in them or even share your opinion.

[Tarpon27]

It is also clear that Dresden has become, to use Scott Smith's favorite term, its own Gruelpropaganda, and a single incident in a war that saw the destruction of many European cities from aerial and combined infantry/armor/artillery attacks that are somehow forgotten, or judged of lesser significance. Fortunately for the Allied cities, the Reich lacked the number and size of heavy bombers needed to achieve the same goals.

Lets stay by the term "Dresden Revisionism". I like it.

Well, sorry, whether you like it or not is immaterial.

The most often qouted source on Dreseden is David Irving's work on the subject, and for his bringing the issue to the forefront of *revising* the historical record of WWII, I will freely admit, openly, that his book on the subject was, and is, the reason why historians and interested parties (such as participants in such forums as this) *revise* their views, and the record, of an event.

Following Irving's original work, other authors and historians *revised* or reviewed the historical record of the bombing of Dresden.

It appears to me that traveling the Denier/Revisionist/Neo-Nazi web sites and literature, Irving's work on Dresden is widely used per "war crimes" comparisons, etc. While Irving's work on Dresden was certainly an examination of what he obviously considers a war crime, his supposed factual statements regarding Dresden, are open to considerable criticism, even in his revised published versions of his original work.

The British raids, at night, were led by 9 (from info I can find) DeHAVILLAND DH-98 "MOSQUITO" aircraft...twin engined, wooden frame aircraft, used as night fighters, and what would today be known as strike aircraft. While it had a variety of uses and was a "fighter", it would have been hard put to outfight a single engined German fighter. Range is approximately 1955 miles.

Mustangs, the single engined escort fighter P-51, had a range of 2000 miles with drop tanks.

In the Dresden raids, and please correct me if I am mistaken but the DH-98's acted as pathfinders for the Lancasters following them, to establish targeting of the city.

In the follow-up daylight raids by the US Army's Air Force, Mustangs were used as escort for the bombers.

According to Irving, these Mustangs, then strafed innocent civilians, particularly along the river. His writing on said subject has been questioned by several different historians.

In the URL I quoted on the strafing by Mustangs, by Richard Evans at the Irving trial, there is also information on the various death tallies put forth by Irving over the years per the victims at Dresden. On this thread, sources have been quoted.

As a thought, the use of fission-based atomic weapons by the US on two cities of Japan have been estimated at numbers far under some of the numbers listed for those dead at Dresden, in a country where construction materials for structures were extremely flammable...wood and often paper walls.

"Dresden Revisionism" is a topic you may wish to consider under your own most closely held views.

Mark

[Hans]

this will be my last german reply for "CabinetMinister".
____________________________________________________________

Also, "unwiderlegbare Beweise" ist erkenntnistheoretisch ein ziemlich problematischer Begriff. Geschichte muss aus Quellen und Ansichten rekonstruiert werden, Abweichungen zur wirklichen Wahrheit sind also grundsätzlich nicht vermeidbar. Es gilt (wie übrigens auch in der Experimentalphysik) den Fehler möglichst klein zu halten und abzuschätzen.

Keine Opferzahl, weder die 250.000 noch die 135.000, um zwei prominente Beispiele zu nennen, sind anhand irgendeiner sicheren Quellen festzumachen, die eine stammt aus einem gefälschten Bericht der Ordnungspolizei, die andere aus einer nachweislichen Falschaussage von Hans Voigt. Auf fundiertere Zahlen trifft man erst wenn man sich die Schätzungen < 60.000 anschaut.

Laut dem Gutachten von Prof. Evans, meinte Georg Feydt, ein Dresden civil defence engineer, dass die Opferzahl nicht höher als 50.000 sein könnte. Feydt zitierte auch angeblich eine offizielle Angabe von 39.773, aber ohne seine Quelle zu nennen. Der Ingenieur rechnete offensichtlich nicht damit, dass mehr als 10.000 Leichen nicht geborgen wurden.
Hans Rumpf, Generalinspektor der Feuerwehr während des Krieges nannte 60,000, eine Zahl die auch von der Wehrmacht genannt wurde.
Max Seydewitz, ein Major der Bundeswehr in Dresden, setzte 35.000 an, mit der Bemerkung, dass sie um einige Tausend höher sein könnte.
Der Historiker Götz Bergander, der übrigens während der Bombadierungen in Dresden war, ist der gleichen Auffassung wie Seydewitz.
Die Schätzungen von Seydewitz, Bergander und Feydt beruhen nun auf der Annahme, dass 35.000 bzw. 40.000 Leichen geborgen worden sind, eine falsche Annahme wie der Friedrich Reichert, Archivar in Dresden, gezeigt hat. Tatsächlich wurden ziemlich genau 25.000 Leichen, oder das was davon übrig blieb, geborgen. Diese Zahl wird durch die letzte "Lagemeldung" der Polizei zur Zahl der Geborgenen gestützt, die 22 096 meldet, Stand 31.3.1945.
Nun zur Fehlerabschätzung. Du fragst: " Doch wieviele Körper sind in diesen 3 Tagen wohl restlos vernichtet worden ?"
Der Ingenieur Feydt rechnete mit weniger als 10.000, Seydewitz und Bergander mit wenigen Tausend, die Polizei in Dresden laut ihren Lagemeldungen mit wenigen Tausend und Theo Miller, ein Mitglied des Aufräumungsstabs in Dresden, setzte in einem Brief an David Irving 20% an, Reichert geht offenbar von einer noch viel kleineren Zahl aus. Der Fehler bewegt sich folglich, wenn überhaupt, im Bereich von wenigen Tausend.
25.000 (plus, das mag jetzt etwas blöd und unpassend klingen, ein paar Zerquetschte) ist also mit großen Abstand die fundierteste und quellenmäßig am besten abgesicherte Schätzung. Diese Zahl wird auch von der Historikergemeinschaft als historisch korrekt akzeptiert.

mfg Hans

[Topspeed]

Hello everyone !

Is there an overview picture how the Dresden citycentre looked after the bombings ?

That would give an idea how the city was suffering more than 1000 words.


best regards,

Juke T

[WalterS]

There are excellent photos, along with an excellent account of the bombing of Dresden in Frederick Taylor's "Dresden, Tuesday, 13 February 1945."

[Topspeed]

Hello I'll be adding some links here to help to find the truth in numbers.


Official allied figures:
http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Po ... resden.htm

Here is one pic:
http://raider.muc.edu/~himmelm/GN%20250 ... resden.htm

here is some more:
http://www.praktica-collector.de/history.htm

Noncombatant figures:
http://www.faqfarm.com/History/WWII/18038

cheers,

Juke

[Topspeed]

Cabinet Minister ahoy !

I was really amazed to see how beautiful that city was.

Is that the Frauenkirche the biggest Lutheran church at that time in the world in left of this pic below ?

[futter]

as were Ethiopians killed, in bombing by Italy, and that is 17000, and a few more thousand in Spain, and Libyam by the right there.

[David Thompson]

futter -- The subject of this thread is Dresden. Please stay on it. It you want to discuss other bombing casualties, check for a pre-existing thread, and if there isn't one, start a new thread.

[Andreas]

The city of Dresden has on the occasion of the 60th anniversary of the bombing established a commission of historians to conduct an investigation into the casualties from the bombings in 1945.

On 24th March the interim report of this became public, stating that it was unlikely that the casualty count was much above 25,000 (twentyfive thousand).

German language reports on this are here (SPIEGEL Online) and here (official press release). The work and membership of the Kommission is described here.

EDIT - all of the links are German only. Can't find anything about the release of the interim finding in English.

Members are:

- Prof. Dr. Rolf-Dieter Müller (Militärgeschichtlichen Forschungsamt der Bundeswehr Potsdam), head of the commission
- Götz Bergander, Berlin, witness of the attack and author of "Dresden im Luftkrieg",
- Dr. Horst Boog,
- Wolfgang Fleischer (Militärhistorisches Museum der Bundeswehr in Dresden)
- Archivdirektor Thomas Kübler (Amtsleiter des Stadtarchivs Dresden )
- Dr. Rüdiger Overmans, Freiburg, (formerly MGFA; author of "Deutsche Militärische Verluste im 2. Weltkrieg").
- Matthias Neutzner representing the initiative "13. Februar 1945"
- Friedrich Reichert, (Stadtmuseum Dresden)
- Nicole Schönherr (Frauenstadtarchiv und Zeitzeugenarchiv Dresden)
- Dr. Thomas Widera (Hannah-Arendt-Institut für Totalitarismusforschung e.V. an der TU Dresden)

The commission expects to report with its conclusions in 2006.

This is politically a hot potato because of the embarassing presence in the state parliament of Saxonia of a group of elected neo-nazi representatives from the NPD, who are equating the bombings of Dresden and the Holocaust.

While one would hope that the commission will lay to rest the phantastic claims that have been made regarding the number of casualties, I think that is a forlorn hope, since those making these claims are usually beyond the reach of rational debate.

All the best

Andreas

[Topspeed]

...Warsaw 1945/1930

Why are there Warsaw pics here in a Dresden thread ?

[David Thompson]

A post with a photograph showing the devastation of Warsaw in 1945, as compared to its pre-war condition, now has a thread of its own at: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79328